Regarding S. scoparium, S. pulchra, & verbena

[Twobytekitty]

Hello! A couple of questions:

I did not see Schizachyrium scoparium, aka Little Bluestem, in the database. Based on my research (see below), it seems that this plant is not toxic to mammals, and birds like the seeds, but I could find no info regarding non-avian reptiles. What do y'all think?
{Bluestem sources:
https://www.wildflower.org/expert/show.php?id=8357
https://www.gcc.mass.edu/oll/plants/little-bluestem/
}

Ditto for Stipa pulchra (syn. Nassella pulchra), i.e., “Purple Needlegrass”-- safe for mammals, could find no info for reptiles. It is native to desert tortoise habitat in California, though I couldn't find data about them eating it. Thoughts?
{Needlegrass source:
https://capitolmuseum.ca.gov/state-symb ... edlegrass/
}

Last question! In the entry for verbena, it says, "Although we can find no evidence of toxicity or harmful properties for most species of Verbena, we feel it is best to be cautious and feed only sparingly as part of a varied diet." Is this because of the potential toxicity of Verbena bonariensis? Is there any specific data for Verbena canadensis?

Thanks so much for your help!

[Nina]

Hi and thanks for posting. I'm sorry to be so late in responding, but we've been inundated with questions via email from people at the moment and I'm a bit behind on my research. Hope to get back to you before the day is out.

Nina

[Nina]

Oh dear, this isn't my day, as I did loads of research (without many results) and wrote nearly a whole reply and then deleted it by accident! So I'll start again.

Schizachyrium scoparium. As far as I can see this should be OK. I found one scientific study that showed the plant took up arsenic from its surroundings, but the plants were grown hydroponically and a fungus was introduced into the roots that increased the arsenic take-up. I saw it listed in several places as being deer resistant (which usually raises an alarm), but that could be because of the texture of the leaves rather than any toxic or anti-nutritional proerties it has, and the sources I checked seemed to indicate that it was safe.

Stipa pulchra (syn. Nassella pulchra). Again, no evidence that this is toxic. The only negative thing I found was that sometimes horses are made ill because the pointed leaves/seeds irritate the lining of the stomach and intestines, but as tortoises in the wild cope well with eating cacti, spines and all, I don't think this would present a problem.

Verbena canadensis. I searched everywhere I could think of and couldn't find anything specific about whether Verbena canadensis is safe or not. Almost all the commentary on toxicity is related to Verbena bonariensis. I also couldn't find any references to say that Verbena canadensis is safe. The problem with so much scientific research is that it focuses on mammals (humans, livestock and pets) and there is very little research on reptiles. It is known that tortoises can sometimes eat plants that are toxic to mammals, due to their very slow digestive system, but without any evidence about a particular species of plant being safe, we tend to err on the side of caution. The World Chelonian Trust have just listed Verbena (with no reference to particular species) as being toxic https://www.chelonia.org/articles/plantsthatpoison.htm I think that I would follow the philosophy of 'when in doubt, leave it out', in relation to actively feeding Verbena canadensis, but if there is some growing in your garden and your tortoise nibbles some leaves, I wouldn't worry.

Sorry not to be more definite with my findings, but I hope this helps a little.

Nina

[Twobytekitty]

Oh, no!!

I'm sorry you had such a hectic day, Nina! Accidental deletion is the worst... I feel your pain! In college, I accidentally deleted a term paper a little more than 12 hours before it was due while proofreading. That moment when you realize what you've done & are almost in denial for a second... the worst! My only saving grace was my obsessive proofreading -- I almost had the damn paper memorized by that point anyway, so I basically just had to retype it!

Thanks so much for this info and all of your efforts in getting it to me! I'm never in a rush about these kinds of things -- I tend to contemplate, research, and strategize (read: fall down internet rabbit-holes and waffle excessively on my decisions) for a while, so please don't ever feel pressured to get back to me quickly. I am so grateful for your time, and you are very generous with it!

Dang mammal chauvinists... ugh! Makes me wish I was smart enough to be good at organic chemistry... analyze my own damn plants! LOL!

I really appreciate your efforts, Nina. This reinforces my own findings (such that they were), so the verbena's gonna make a great trailing specimen for a hanging basket. I have not yet grown the jungle on/in our porch and foyer to the extent my roommate has gotten lost in it, so I clearly needed more potted plants, anyway.

Thanks again for your time & sharing the powers of your research-fu!
-Chris

[Nina]

Hi Chris,

Lol, I loved your post -- really made me smile on what is a dark, cold day here! And how satisfying to hear that proofreading saved your day when the term paper got deleted. I worked for an academic publisher for many years, and I'm a pretty obsessive proofreader too!

Out of curiosity, where do you live? From the plants you're asking about, I'm guessing that you're in the USA, and was wondering what species of tortoise you keep. We correspond with a lot of people in the States, and some of them have Gopher tortoises, which we don't see in the UK, so it's always nice to see photos of people's lovely tortoises. I have two Horsfields (Russians) and they have big personalities -- well, not at the moment as they are in the middle of winding down in preparation for hibernation -- but give them some sunshine and heat and they're little dynamos.

Nina

[Twobytekitty]

Nina,

I am in the US! I'm a Texas native, currently living in Charlotte, North Carolina, though I have dreams of moving to New Mexico someday in the hopefully not-too-distant future. A big part of the reason is so that I can rescue Sulcatas, which are horribly oversold here and often end up in homes that cannot accommodate them beyond the first year or so. I just moved a rescue out to a good home -- I don't have the space to provide for them beyond emergency rescue while I find them good homes with people who actually understand what they are taking on.

Otherwise, at the moment I am unfortunately tortoise-less. The enclosure that I have been working on planting (and thus making inquiries about) is for my roommate's bearded dragon. He is a voracious little shit that has been challenging my ability to make a planted enclosure work, but I am determined! If I can keep plants alive in a tortoise pen, I can deal with a beardie! LOL! The problem is scale... it's a 4'x2'x2' (about 122cm x 61cm x 61cm) so I am limited in the size plants I can fit and smaller plants are easier to demolish... I'll get there! I swear he is more destructive than any of my snakes.

I love Gopher tortoises, though I have not had direct experience with them. My little sister commandeered my Leopard tortoise, but she is still in Texas and has a better space and climate for her. She was a blast to raise, and really gorgeous. I've not kept Russians, but I have a friend with a Russian that likes to chase people! LOL! He is a character... constantly seeing what people will let him get away with. He's not really mean, just mischievous. It blows my mind when people deny that reptiles have personalities or inner lives.

Anyway, babbling aside, I'm hoping one day an Egyptian tortoise will fall into my lap as a rescue (ha), but until that happens or I move to New Mexico, I am afraid I won't have any permanent chelonian friends. If I take on any new rescues, I'll be sure to snap some photos, though!

-Chris