New owner of Horsfield tortoise

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Emma&Kimchi
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Joined: 12 Nov 2023, 09:28

New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Emma&Kimchi » 12 Nov 2023, 15:54

Hi everyone!

I have just adopted a Horsfield tortoise (Kimchi) and am looking for general advice about husbandry please :)

Kimchi is 3-4 years of age (apparently hatched in 2020 but unsure of which month) and I have adopted him from a family who didn't have enough time for him. I have a table and set up including lamp that they've also gave to me. He strikes me as quite small for his age - I have just weighed him and he is 169g - is this normal?

I am currently housing him inside in the tortoise table that he came with his heat/uv lamp. In the covered bit of his table there is also a heat pad attached to the ceiling bit. I am turning the lamp on in the day and then off again at night. I am unsure when to use the heat pad - any advice on this would be much appreciated. I have seen online that heat pads can prevent basking behaviour - any thoughts?

His current substrate is a pellet-like substance (looks a bit like something you might give to a rabbit) that obviously isnt suitable based on the research I've done and I've ordered the coir/soil mix from the website to replace this (it should come tomorrow - I just got him yesterday). He also has some edible bedding which is in the indoor bit of his enclosure and he does seem to like to bury in that. I dont think he had much stimulation unfortunately - and his set up is quite boring currently - so I've added a flowerpot to the other end as an additional hide, and I've ordered Sphagnum moss for this. In addition I'm going to plant some things in the soil (again ordered from your website), and I also have a cuttlefish bone on the way. I'd like to make sure he has enough stimulation so any suggestions for ways to make their set up as fun as possible for them - please let me know. I think he will be happy when he can bury himself in the new substrate.

I soaked him today and he pooed a lot which I think is a good sign. He also has just eaten (a variety of leaves that I've checked using your app - and I sprinkled them with calcium powder stuff (nutrobal). There is also a block in his table (zoo med) which I think is also supposed to offer calcium but I haven't seen him go near the block yet. He has a shallow bowl of fresh water as well as of course.

He seems healthy and there are no obvious problems/ concerns (aside from maybe being a bit small), but I wondered if it was worth taking him to the vet for a health check? Is this something people do routinely?

Temp wise I do have 2 thermometers stuck to the wall of his table on either end. One side is 30 degrees and the other is 20 currently.

I haven't considered hibernating him as obviously I've only just got him and also I think he may be too young/too small for this. I definitely won't be doing this this year as it doesn't seem appropriate from what I've read - but any thoughts on how old he should be when I should start considering this would be super helpful.

Please let me know any advice or thoughts in addition to my questions - I just want to make sure he has a really good life and thrives :)

Thanks very much!

Emma

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Nina
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Nina » 12 Nov 2023, 19:34

HI Emma and welcome to The Tortoise Table! Love the name Kimchi and I love Horsfields (but I'm a bit prejudiced there because I keep Horsfields and they are a species with a great personality. I've just re-read this message before posting and I do apologise for the length in advance!!

His weight at 3 - 4 years sounds absolutely fine. We aim for tortoises to gain an average of between 1g - 3g on average each month. So if he was, say, 16g when he hatched, and is now 3 and half years old (42 months) then 42 x 3g per month = 126g + birth weight of 16g = 142g.
So if anything he is a tiny bit more than one might suspect.

The thing about many tortoises, but especially Horsfields, is that they must grow slowly or they run the risk of developing deformed shells. In the wild they live in areas where it is very hot in summer and much of the vegetation dies, so there is competition with other animals for what is left, and tortoises are designed to grow slowly. Horsfields are particularly interesting because the areas they come from tend to have very long cold winters and very long hot summers and field studies have shown that they hibernate in the winter and aestivate (like hibernation but in the heat) and in fact are only awake for about three months a year and aren't even eating for much of that time. So they are sort of programmed to 'eat for England' in the time they are allowed, and consequently in captivity, where we present them with lovely meals every day, they overeat and can develop pyraminding of their shells and metabolic bone disease. You therefore need to monitor his weight gains and if he is gaining on average more than about 3g per month, then cut down on the amount of food you are giving him.

Re the substrate -- I'm glad you're getting rid of that pellet-like substrate. And you are right that Horsfields are burrowing species, and they like nothing better than to bury themselves completely (quite alarming the first time you go to look at them and you think they have somehow escaped from their enclosure!). Your coir/soil mix is probably fine (I'm not familiar with it), but the best substrate is one that replicates what they have in the wild, which is a sandy soil. So the easiest thing to use is ordinary topsoil and children's play sand (in must be children's play sand and not builder's sand), and you can buy bags of these at garden centres and DIY places like Homebase. We just mix them 50/50 (or mine prefer about 60% or 70% topsoil and 30% or 40% sand, and then you spray it every day or two to keep it from getting dusty. What I do is to pour some water on it once or twice a week and mix it up well so that the result is the teeny tiniest bit damp (not wet at all), so that a handful of soil will just start to clump together if you have some in your hand and make a fist. I would have the soil mixture in his sleeping area too, and in general you want it as deep as your enclosure will allow (at least 3" or 4" if possible, so that he can bury himself in it. No need to switch to that now -- the mixture you bought will probably be fine, but you can think about switching to a sand/soil substrate when that one is used up.

The flowerpot is a good idea, and in fact tortoises get bored if they can see from one end of their enclosure without interruption, so plants, rocks, hides, etc. are a good idea. If you do put plants in there, be aware that if he likes them he might just eat them to the ground in no time. I grow decorative grasses and spider plants, both of which mine ignore for quite a while and then one day I come home and they have eaten them to the ground. For extra exercise and stimulation, you could consider (if the size of your table allows it, to put in a second level for him to climb up to. I have a second level in my table with a ramp leading up to it, and I feed them up there, so mine are always running up and down the ramp to see if there are any treats there for them. It doesn't need to be big (mine is too big), and underneath that level can function as a sleeping area. I've attached a photo of mine to give you an idea of what I mean.

Mine have never touched those hard calcium blocks (I think they are just too hard for them), but they will nibble on cuttlefish, and Nutrobal is an excellent supplement (do follow the instructions though -- I think it is 'one pinch per kilo of tortoise', which is not helpful at all when you have a small tortoises. You can also buy food grade calcium carbonate powder that you can sprinkle on food for them on days when they don't have the Nutrobal (they do need a lot of calcium).

You don't need a heat pad, unless your room temperature drops below about 13C or 14C at night. If your thermometers are mounted on a wall of the table then they won't be giving you an accurate reading of the temperature directly under heat bulb, which will be at least 5 degrees, maybe more, higher. You want to measure the temperature directly under the lamp and at the height of the tortoise's shell. I use one of the digital fridge-freezer thermometers with a display unit that sits outside the table and probe on the end of a long cord that you can hang down into the table next to the circle of light -- something like this https://www.pharmacy-equipment.co.uk/pr ... er-tmm105/ You can get them in lots of places, but it's good to have one that has a Max/Min facility, so that you can see how hot or how cold it got since you last looked, which is really helpful on cold nights, etc. Your thermometer on the wall at the cool end is probably fine, but the hot end might need more accurate monitoring.

There is probably no need to take him to a vet at the moment, but if you do then it's really important to use an 'exotics' vet (they specialise in reptiles, birds etc).. Ordinary vets have very little training in reptiles and there can be problems. We have a list of recommended vets, organised by county, here: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... s-by-area/

It's good that you are soaking him, as lights indoors can be very drying. I definitely wouldn't hibernate him this year, as you have only just got him, but Horsfields have a strong hibernation instinct, so if he starts to get lethargic and not wanting to wake up in the mornings and loses his appetite, let us know and we can give you tips to get him going again. You can hibernate him next year, and we have really good instructions for preparing him for hibernation and the hibernation itself that we can send you when you're ready.

I am so sorry that this message is so long! If you're still awake after having trawled through all I've written, here is a link to a care sheet for Horsfields, and do let me know if you have any more questions or problems. https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf

I think you're made a great start and are going to be a really excellent tortoise keeper, and Kimchi has been very lucky to have found a home with you.

Nina
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Emma&Kimchi
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Joined: 12 Nov 2023, 09:28

Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Emma&Kimchi » 12 Nov 2023, 20:19

Hi Nina!

Thank you SO much - that was all so helpful, I really appreciate and so glad I have found this forum!

I will definitely switch to the substrate you recommend next time and will order the thermometer you suggest. I really love the look of your set up and will think about how I could add an 'extension' for Kimchi :D

I am wondering if he is perhaps already quite lethargic/in hibernation mode as he does spend most of the time in his bedding and didnt wake up until I took him out of that area this morning (probably a good hour after I'd put the lamp on and food down etc). I thought maybe it is because he cant bury himself in the substrate that he currently has outside of his covered area where the bedding is, and also that he is settling into a new place - but maybe he is also feeling like he'd like a long winter sleep! what would you suggest? I will change his substrate tomorrow and add his new accessories so hopefully that will help.

Thanks again so much!

Emma

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Nina
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Nina » 12 Nov 2023, 22:30

Hi Emma,

I'm so glad that you weren't put off by that long post of mine! :)

It could well be that he is just settling in (how long have you had him?), or it could be lots of other things -- temperature, hibernation mode, etc. It might be that the temperature at the warm end of his enclosure is too warm -- and it will almost certainly be warmer than 30C if that reading is from a thermometer mounted on a nearby wall. Just as an experiment, you could try taking that thermometer at the warm end off the wall and hold it for three or four minutes directly underneath the lamp at about the height of his shell. I'd be interesting to see what it is, but I don't think that even if it is a lot higher than 30C that it's the cause of is lethargy because it is 20C at the cooler end, and he can walk from the warm to the cool area and thermoregulate.

Horsfields have such strong hibernation instincts that it could be that. Mine certainly go into hibernation mode much earlier than I want them to. They sometimes start at the beginning of September, and I don't want them to hibernate until December, so that when I wake them up three months later there are some nice weeds starting to grow in the garden. What I do when that happens (and it has worked for others) is to wake mine up every morning and put them under the lamp. They usually stay there for a little while and then head back to bed. I put them back under the lamp another two or three times (but no more as I don't want to stress them too much). After two or three weeks they seem to come out of it and get going again. I am lucky in that mine will eat after they go under the lamp (some tortoises will refuse to eat, and that can be a problem).

What you want to do is to fool them into thinking that it is a bright summer's day. So adding extra light is a big help. I have some of those desk lamps with bendy stems, and I just hook them over the side of the table with a low energy light bulb(so as not to add too much heat), but a bulb that produces the highest light levels that I can find. Or if the table is near a window then that light helps too. If the table is cool then I can add incandescent lamps that add heat as well as light. But I would just try the waking him up and putting him under the lights first.

You're doing a great job, and I'm sure we can get Kimchi back on track.

Nina

Emma&Kimchi
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Joined: 12 Nov 2023, 09:28

Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Emma&Kimchi » 13 Nov 2023, 08:16

Hi Nina,

Not put off at all - really appreciate all the details!

I've popped kimchi under the light this morning as you suggest. I only picked him up on Saturday so I'm sure he is still settling in! Will play around with light and temp too (I've ordered the thermometer you suggested) and his new substrate is coming today.

Thank you again :)

Emma

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Nina
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Nina » 13 Nov 2023, 10:31

Good luck, Emma, and let us know how you get on. If you only got him on Saturday, it's very probably just a settling in period.

Cheers,
Nina

Stevievee
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Stevievee » 22 Nov 2023, 08:58

Wow! Great questions, with equally great reply! I am picking up my Horsfield on Sunday. Pearl is 3 and a half (female). She come with a table, lamp and all I need to get going! I'm soooo nervous though!
Also, it will be a 2 hour car drive to get home. Any advice on making this less stressful and how to help get her settle once home would be great!
I'm also worried about food during winter, I have bought some Pre Alpine Testudo Herbs as I read these are good, rather than pellets that seem frowned upon a little. Just not sure what I can supply from the garden. Anything from the supermarket would be more reassuring as I know what I'm buying then!
How has Kimchi settled in Emma? Well I hope!?
You could be my tortoise buddy! Similar age torts and getting them at similar times, we could learn together!! :D

Stevievee
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Stevievee » 22 Nov 2023, 09:05

[attachment=0]Screenshot_20231122-090344.png[/attachment]
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This is the set up she will be coming with!

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Nina
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Nina » 22 Nov 2023, 10:11

Hi Stevie, and welcome to the Tortoise Table!

Many congratulations on getting Pearl (such a cute name for a really cute tortoise!). I put a link to a care sheet for Horsfields in that long email earlier in this thread, so do have a read of it and come back with any questions.

I absolutely understand you being nervous -- but that's a really good sign as it means you care and want to provide Pearl with the best environment. That's a nice table, and a really good start. I can see one particularly good thing about it, which is that the lamp is hung from a chain onto the arm that holds it. That means that you can raise and lower the lamp to increase or decrease the temperature in the table, which is great, as temperature is really important.

What sort of bulb is in that lamp (is it a combined heat/light/UVB mercury vapour bulb)?

A couple of little tweaks I would make to the existing set-up.
1. I would change the substrate to one made of topsoil and children's play sand (mixed together either 50/50 or 70/30, with the majority being soil). Horsfields are a burrowing species and they like nothing better than to bury themselves completely. In the wild they live on a sandy soil substrate, so it's good to replicate that in captivity, and make the soil as deep as possible (at lest 3" or 4"). Also, it's really easy to spot clean a soil-based substrate, picking up poos and wees with an old spoon (and when she wees the soil will just clump together and come out easily). Just spray the substrate every day or two to keep it from getting dusty.

2. I think the table is lovely, but it is providing two dark and sort of wasted spaces. Personally I would take the roof off the top level, so that it is light up there. I feed mine on the top level, so they are always running up and down the ramp to see if there are any treats for them. Under that top area it is also dark, but she can use that as a sleeping area if she prefers (lol, you can't predict where they will choose to sleep!).

Re the car ride home. I would make the car coolish, as that will calm her down and make her less active. Put her in a plastic (or something similar) box, with an old bit of towel or something in it, so she can snuggle in, and a few holes for air, and put something over it to make it dark. Don't use a cardboard box -- lol, the first time I took, my Doris to the vet, I put her in a cardboard box on the back seat and when I got to the vets and opened the box all that was there was a tortoises sized hole in the box and no tortoise! I absolutely panicked, but of course found her not far away on the back seat. Tortoises -- and especially Horsfields -- are amazing diggers.

Pre Alpin Testudo Herbs is an excellent food. You do need to rehydrate it by soaking in warm water before feeding. And get a good calcium supplement to sprinkle on it. Re winter feed, a bit of Kale is not bad (but don't feed too many members of the cabbage family, as they contain goitrogens), and you can mix it with a salad mixture called Florette Crispy that you can get from most supermarkets. Also there are still a lot of weeds about -- dandelion, plantain, some sowthistle, and campanula and some other garden flowers too.

Good luck and please send us photos of Pearl when you get her home -- we never get tired of looking at photos of lovely tortoises!

Nina

Stevievee
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Stevievee » 22 Nov 2023, 10:19

Thanks Nina. I'm like a kid at Christmas!

I'm not sure about the bulb that is in there at the moment, but thinking it will need a MVB bulb, if not already one in there. The upstair is set up like a 'bedroom' with a heat pad on the roof (I'll send a photo to show you). Taking the roof off there maybe something to consider though!

I'll will be changing the substrate to topsoil and play sand. I want it to look as natural as possible, so will be looking at plants, etc, to bake it more authentic!

Thanks for the advice!

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Stevievee
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Stevievee » 22 Nov 2023, 10:23

[attachment=0]Screenshot_20231122-102249.png[/attachment] Pearl!!!
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Nina
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Nina » 22 Nov 2023, 16:49

It is exciting, isn't it!

Thanks for the photos. The upstairs bedroom is fine (but I would take the bedding out of there, because if he wees on it, it can go mouldy). It will be fine as long as he decides to sleep there, but if he prefers sleeping elsewhere then it's sort of wasted. The area underneath that upperlevel could also function as a sleeping area. Personally I find that many tortoises just prefer to cram themselves into a little flower pot lyng on its side, or go under one of those bendy log thingys. Just see how it goes, and you'll soon get an idea of what she prefers to do -- and she might well like that little penthouse sleeping area.

The heatpad on the roof is OK, but she shouldn't really need it unless the temperature drops below about 15C or 16C at night.
If the bulb that is coming with the table is more than a year or two old and is mercury vapour lamp, you need to replace it, because they UVB only lasts that long (it's more complicated than that and I can explain if you want).

Plants in the substrate are a nice thing (but be prepared to come home one day and find them all eaten to the ground). I find that little decorative grasses can last a while, and I usually have a spider plant going outside the table, and as it produces those little baby plantlets on the end of stems I pick them off and plant them in the table and they last a while too, until eaten. Just be sure that whatever plants you put in aren't toxic.

She's a lovely little tortoise, but I think she has been grown a bit too quickly. Horsfields are particularly prone to growing too quickly and getting pyramided shells (when the individual scutes are raised and bumpy), and that is an indication that the shell is malformed underneath and not solid enough. In the wild Horsfields live in countries where there are long cold winters (during which time they hibernate) and long hot summers (during which they aestivate a lot). Observational studies have shown that they're only awake for about two months a year, and during that time they're sort of programmed to 'eat for England'.

In captivity we give them lovely big meals and they overeat and develop real problems, so be firm right from the start and keep a record of her growth. You should aim for an increase in weight of between 1g - 3g per month (that's just an average, but it's a good guideline), and if she is consistently gaining more then cut down on the amount you give her. A rough guide is enough leaves, etc. to make a little blanket to cover her shell, or all she can eat in 15 or 20 minutes, once a day.

Also do make sure she has a good calcium supplement with vitamin D3 like Revitalise D3 or Nutrobal, plus extra calcium in the form of pure calcium carbonate that you can sprinkle on food or leave a cuttlefish bone in the enclosure for her to nibble on (and you can also scrape it onto her food with a fingernail).

I'm so pleased for you, and I think that Pearl is one lucky little tortoise to have found a home with you.

Nina

Stevievee
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Stevievee » 22 Nov 2023, 20:34

Or maybe not... Just had a message saying they have decided to give her to a friend! I'm gutted and a bit angry to be fair!!
I'm not giving up... I've now set myself a project to build my own table and buy a tortoise once it's all ready to go!

In the words of Arnie, 'ill be back'

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Nina
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Nina » 22 Nov 2023, 22:04

Oh Stevie, I'm so sorry! Actually we always have some tortoises to rehome, and we advertise them on our Facebook page. No money can change hands -- we just want a tortoise to go to a good home, and I think you could provide one. Have a look at our FB page here: https://www.facebook.com/TheTortoiseTable#
Where do you live? If there isn't a tortoise available near you on the FB page then we could always contact you if one comes up in your area.

Nina

Stevievee
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Stevievee » 22 Nov 2023, 22:10

That's very kind, thank you. I'm in West Yorkshire. My new building project starts this weekend! Quite looking forward to it actually!

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Nina
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Nina » 23 Nov 2023, 12:19

Good luck and let us know how you get on. I would definitely consider a second level in your table (I have photos of mine being constructed if you're interested), and also make sure that whatever you have you will be able to raise and lower the heat/light lamp, and also provide for the possibility of having a separate lamp for heat and light plus a uvb fluorescent tube.

Most people who build their own tables choose to line it along the bottom and part way up the sides with that flexible pool liner stuff (I think it comes in rolls). That makes for easier cleaning. Also, it's best not to use pine (although it is sealed well then it can work (pine chips etc. can give off dangerous fumes when heated). Also, they prefer a small, almost cramped space rather than a large space to sleep in, but for daytime use the bigger the table the better, as tortoises get incredibly bored and lethargic in small spaces. You can even make one in an 'L' shape to fit into a corner.

I think what ever you choose to make, the little tortoise that you get will eventually have a palace to move into!

Cheers,
Nina

Stevievee
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Stevievee » 27 Nov 2023, 08:45

Hi Nina
I am taking all this advice on board and have started my table this weekend. Photos of yours would be helpful though. Would you put a stone under the basking lamp (I know not slate, as I read about this getting too hot).
Thanks
Steve

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Nina
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Nina » 27 Nov 2023, 10:11

Hi Steve,

My table is probably bigger than you want (it's 7' x 2'), but a general rule is to make the table as large as your space will allow, as tortoises like to have a large space to roam in.

My table sits on top of a cabinet, where I keep all the electrics, spare bulbs, literature, etc., and it doesn't have a back to the cabinet so that the electrics can go out the back and into the socket easily. It has two upside down 'U' arms that can slide along the top of the table (it isn't necessary but a nice little feature) for hanging lights from. Lights are hung from chains and I use 'S' hooks to raise and lower the chains to adjust temperature in the table.

There's also has a ramp up to a second lovel. The ramp is removable for cleaning, as is the shelf that is the second level (it just rests on bits of wood screwed into the walls of the table). The tops of the wals have a little lip that faces inwards so that the tortoise can't climb out (they are amazing climbers), and those inward facing bits are removable so that you can take out the shelf that makes the top level (that photo is the 7th one down).

There's no need to have all the bells and whistles with sliding arms and removable lips on top of walls -- something much simpler (just a box with sides hgih enough that he can't climb out is fine), but a ramp up to a second level is really great and tortoises love climbing up and down. I feed mine on the top level so they are always going up there to see if there are any treats.

If I had to make the table over again, I would make the upper level smaller, as the space underneath that, which is meant to be a sleeping area (although they often don't go in there to sleep), is much larger than they need, and so is sort of wasted, as it's dark.

Regarding a stone under the light. You could have a nice piece of sandstone, but there's a risk with that, as with the slate, that it could get too hot from the light. Personally I don't have anything under my heat source -- just the substrate and they are perfectly happy basking on that.

I've attached some photos of construction start to finish (but I have more), and I tried to add them in the order that the table was built, but no matter what I did they loaded in reverse order, so you can start with the bottom one and work up to see the progress.

Nina

[attachment=0]m_IMG_9953.jpg[/attachment][attachment=1]m_IMG_9496.jpg[/attachment][attachment=2]planting and stones on lower level.jpg[/attachment][attachment=3]Arm with light on chain with 'S' hook.jpg[/attachment][attachment=4]arms that hold lamps.jpg[/attachment][attachment=5]Table, finished with two arms that slide along top.jpg[/attachment][attachment=6]Removable rail on top level.jpg[/attachment][attachment=7]Table with lining and ramp with wood stop at base.jpg[/attachment][attachment=8]Second level -- floor and ramp removed from table.jpg[/attachment][attachment=9]Table - top and bottm constructed.jpg[/attachment][attachment=10]Table on top of cabinet being constructed.jpg[/attachment][attachment=11]Table showing structure.jpg[/attachment]
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m_IMG_9953.jpg
m_IMG_9496.jpg
planting and stones on lower level.jpg
Arm with light on chain with 'S' hook.jpg
arms that hold lamps.jpg
Table, finished with two arms that slide along top.jpg
Removable rail on top level.jpg
Table with lining and ramp with wood stop at base.jpg
Second level -- floor and ramp removed from table.jpg
Table - top and bottm constructed.jpg
Table on top of cabinet being constructed.jpg
Table showing structure.jpg

Stevievee
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Stevievee » 27 Nov 2023, 14:02

If mine turns out half this good, I'll be happy Nina!!
I am having a second floor, copying your idea of using this as a feeding station with sleeping area underneath. I've got the base together, its 4ft by 2ft as it will then fit on top of a set of drawers already in the room. Steady progress, working on it as time allows. I'll post updates as it goes along! Just hope there's a little Horsfield looking for a new home in the New Year!!!
Just to add what a great forum this is! Good to know there's help and advice so readily available.

Steve

Abbeyandbubbles
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Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Abbeyandbubbles » 03 Dec 2023, 21:25

Good evening,

I need some help, I brought home a baby horsefield 2 days ago, which we named bubbles 😁
My concern is it hasn't eaten in 3 days, and is showing no interest at all, it doesn't move away from the lamp all day and stays in the same spot all night! It was active at the place we brought it from but not now.
It barely opens his eyes and will only do that if I drop a little droplet on its head which rolls down each eye then it slowly opens them.
The night time temp is steady between 20 and 22 degrees centigrade, and its basking lamp is 29-30 degrees centigrade from the top of its shell.
We did bath it and it moved around, then did a poop which made us happy but now it has slowed right down.
The bulb is a 100w combi bulb which is on 10-11 hours per day, and everything off at night.
The substrate is prorep tortoise life which is a mixture of high-quality topsoil and sand substrate.
It has access to fresh water and leafy greens but nothing. It has a hide made of sticks but it hasn't even gone near it.

Is this an adjustment period or should I be worried?

Please help 🙏

Thanks in advance, Abbey and Bubbles

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Nina
Posts: 2022
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Nina » 04 Dec 2023, 12:04

Hi Abbey and Bubbles and sorry to be late in responding to your post.
Congratulations on getting your little Horsfield, and I love the name Bubbles!

It's a bit difficult for me to say what might be wrong with Bubbles, as it seems from what you described that you've got a good set-up and the temperatures are right (it's often having the wrong temperature that causes lethargy, etc.).

Do you know how old he is, and did you buy him from a breeder or a pet shop? Young tortoises do have a tendency to sleep a fair amount, and he could be just settling in, but it's not right that he stays under the lamp all of the time and isn't wandering around and exploring and eating.

Can you tell me what sort of set-up he is in? The reason I ask is because the first thing that comes to mind is if he is in a vivarium (a glass and wood enclosed box with ventilation holes). Those are bad environments for tortoises (I can explain why if this is what you have been sold), and he needs to be in a tortoise table. If you have been sold a vivarium let me know, and I can tell you how to return it as not fit for purpose, or how to adapt it to a better environment for him. If he is in a tortoise table then that's great, but would it be possible for you to post a photo of it, in case there are just a few tweaks needed to get it perfect for him? Photos need to be reduced a bit in size in order to post them here, and if yours is too big then just send it to me at nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk and I'll reduce it and upload it for you.

It's good that you bathed him, and I would continue to do that every day in warm water that just just up to his chin (or where the top shell meets the bottom shell), because although tortoises can go a long time without eating, they dehydrate easily, especially under lights indoors, and many tortoises won't drink from their water bowl. He's small and smaller tortoises do dehydrate easily.

I know this must be stressful for you, but it's usually something small with the husbandry that just needs tweaking, and can be sorted quickly.

You might already have one, but here is a link to a care sheet for Horsfield tortoises -- have a read and come back with any questions you might have: https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf

Nina

Emma&Kimchi
Posts: 12
Joined: 12 Nov 2023, 09:28

Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Emma&Kimchi » 25 Jan 2024, 19:26

Dear Steve and Nina,

Steve - I'm so sorry I didn't realise you'd added messages to this thread! Any updates on your tort adoption? it sounds like you're really well prepared!

Kimchi is doing well thanks! However, I do have a question for you, Nina, if ok. It seems that Kimchi might be growing too fast - he hatched in 2020 (unsure which month) and I adopted him in November last year and when I weighed him on the 12th November he was 169g, and then in December he was 188g - but I wondered whether one of those measurements might have been erroneous. I have just weighed him today and he is 197g! So he has put on almost 30g in 3 months. I know that weight gain should be more like 2-3g per month so this feels bad .. I have just measured his scute length for the first time and it is approx. 10cm (he didnt want to put his head in when I tried to gently push him up against the wall as per the TT instructions - so its def an approximation). Visually, I can tell he has put on weight and grown larger since I adopted him.

I am concerned about shell pyramiding as as per our previous discussions he already had some when I first adopted him - which doesnt appear to have got any worse. I am just wondering if I am doing something wrong diet wise. I feed him a mixture of weeds that I forage (using your app and guide) as well leaves from houseplants I have (e.g., spider and prayer plant), and also have some dried flowers that I bought from a tortoise website and these little pellet things called Nutrazu - which he absolutely loves, and sometimes a treat of a small piece of cucumber (not often). I dont give all of this every day of course - I just make a little pile of a variety of the leaves that would roughly cover his shell like a blanket and I also give a single soaked Nutrazu pellet max twice per week alongside a smaller pile of leaves. And I add the calcium powder supplement on top of this. I was previously feeding him daily and switched about a month ago to 6 days a week with Sunday being a fast day as I thought that might help. What do you suggest? I know that his previous owner fed him Salad leaves so I wonder if it is the change and increased variety in the diet .. do I need to do anything different? should I be worried about the rapid weight gain?

In case helpful he sees and poos daily/every other day and everything looks good from that perspective. He also has free roam of the downstairs area of the flat for about an hour a day (safe from hazards).

Do let me know your thoughts when able, thanks :)

Emma

P.S. Is now an appropriate time to assess his sex? I've had a look comparing pictures from a book I have and actually wonder if Kimchi might be a girl but I am not sure and also don't know if he is too young to tell. Thanks!


Update - Oh - I forgot to say I bought 5 small (tortoise safe) plants to go in his table back in November and he ate them all pretty rapidly, which probably didn't help! I've settled for a fake fern-like plant in there instead now.

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Nina
Posts: 2022
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Nina » 26 Jan 2024, 09:26

Hi Emma, and thanks for the update. Did I ever respond to your original post? I can't tell when it was sent because it's been updated with your P.S. but it doesn't look as if I did respond (I was away in Morocco from 14th - 28th December, and wasn't really on top of things), and I'm really sorry!

Regarding Kimchi's weight gain, you are doing nothing wrong with your diet -- it sounds good -- but you might just be giving Kimchi too much of it, as 30g in three months is quite a lot. Mine have gained that amount sometimes -- especially in the summer when they're outdoors -- and it's a problem that everyone has with Horsfields. As I mentioned earlier, in the wild they are estimated to be awake only about three months a year (because they hibernate in the long cold winters and aestivate in the long hot summers). The fact that you are giving him a little pile of leaves, etc. that would make a blanket to cover his shell, and having a 'fast' day once a week should be OK, but maybe cut down a bit on how many leaves are in the pile (lol, is it a single layer blanket or a duvet :D ). Also, are you weighing him on digital scales? A lot of scales aren't quite as accurate in the lower weight range, but I'm assuming that yours are fine. I think I would just reduce the amount you are giving him each day, by a little bit, and see if he gains less weight over the coming months.

Eating all the plants you have lovingly bought and planted in his enclosure is par for the course for Horsfields. I plant spider plants in my enclosure, and mine wait a week or two before demolishing them, and I also plant decorative grasses (Carex 'Frosted Curls' is the one I use because I have it in my garden and it throws up seedlings everywhere). They sometimes leave that for a month or two before pulling it up and eating it, but it's a losing battle.

If you like, I could see if I've got some small Carex plants coming up in my garden now, and I'd be happy to send you some. When they get big they look like this:
https://www.oneclickplants.co.uk/cdn/sh ... 1667572757 and outdoors they are particularly nice because they grow straight upwards for a while and then fall over from the centre, a bit like a water fountain and the tortoises can shelter underneath from the sun. Indoors they won't grow that big.

It is probably too early to sex him, but do send a photo of his underside, clearly showing the tail, and I'll have a guess.

Cheers,
Nina

Stevievee
Posts: 44
Joined: 21 Nov 2023, 19:44

Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Stevievee » 27 Jan 2024, 09:24

Hi Emma. It's nice to get an update on Kimchi.

I'm all ready to adopt now. Although we do go away for 2 weeks at the end of February, so I will be stepping up my effort in getting a tort on my return! My wife thinks I'm mad, I keep getting little deliveries each week, lamp, bowls, thermometers! Haha

Can't wait now!

Nina- Don't forget to keep an eye out for a tortoise needing rehoming in, or near West Yorkshire!! :D

Emma&Kimchi
Posts: 12
Joined: 12 Nov 2023, 09:28

Re: New owner of Horsfield tortoise

Post by Emma&Kimchi » 27 Jan 2024, 13:45

Hi Nina,

Thanks so much for your reply - so helpful! and really appreciate your kind off of sending plants and further info in our email chain!!

Here is a pic of Kimchi's underside - let me know if its not an adequate picture!

Steve - so exciting re your adoption - let us know how it goes!

all the best,

Emma
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