Spring foraging in Northern Indiana (US)

[sulcata310]

My 15 year old son and I are recently fostering a 20 year old Sulcata. He is our first tortoise ever. We are committed to improving his quality of life. Poor thing is stranded in the northern hemisphere. He has been raised on a woefully inadequate diet.
I’ve been obsessively researching your database for non-grocery options.
We are in our first weeks of Spring. The purple dead nettle is vibrant and abundant. Dandelion & garlic mustard are turning up as well.

I have a list of plants that volunteer in our yard.
None are listed in your database.
Wondering if any are safe to feed?

Northern sea oats, Chasmanthium latifolium (grass only, not the ornamental seeds)

Motherwort, Leonurus cardiaca

Cleavers, Galium aparme

Beggarticks, Bidens frondosa

Box elder, Acer negundo

Kind regards,
Jasmine

[Nina]

Hi Jasmine,

I've responded to your other post separately, and here are my thoughts on the list you just posted (and just in case you weren't aware, when you are typing a message, there is a tick box below the box you are writing in that you can and then you will be notified when someone responds to your post).

Thanks very much for including the Latin names -- it can be very confusing because many plants have ten or twenty common names, and several different plants have the same common name, but Latin names are unique and reliable.

First, there are a couple on your list that we do have entries for:
Cleavers (Galium aparme): https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/pla ... nt=132&c=6
and
Beggarticks (Galium aparine): https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/pla ... t=511&c=11

Northern sea oats (Chasmanthium latifolium). I think this will be fine and, as you say, not the seeds.

Motherwort (Leonurus cardiaca). I think this is one I would steer clear of in regards to diet, although if your tortoise happened to nibble the odd leaf then I'm sure no harm would be done. Most scientific studies of plant toxicity are in relation to humans, livestock and mammals that are pets (cats and dogs). Reptiles are very different and can often eat foods that are toxic to mammals -- but some foods that are safe for mammals should not be given to tortoises. So because there is not a wealth of material on specific plants and tortoises, we have to read the studies and then err on the side of caution. Articles like this one https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6500680/ indicate that there is some toxicity (a sedative effect, possible respiratory problems), but they are using concentrated extracts from the plant. It probably wouldn't hurt your tortoise, but I'd just err on the side of caution and not feed.

Box elder maple (Acer negundo). The seeds of this tree (and indeed all acers, I think) are toxic to horses (they contain hypoglycin A, which causes impaired oxydation of fatty acids and the disease SPF -- seasonal pasture myopathy), but I can't find whether they are toxic to tortoises. The young leaves are probably OK to eat, but as they age they become increasingly toxic -- and here is our general entry for acers https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/pla ... lant=4&c=4 Because the Latin name in our entry is Acer spp. that means that our advice should be relevant to all species of Acer, so again I think I would err on the side of caution and be a bit wary about actively feeding Box elder.

Just another thought -- did you know that you can produce lists of edible plants using the filter tool on our database? Just go to this page and scroll down the the section called 'How to Use the Traffic Light Filters'. https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/pla ... -database/

Sorry to have rambled on a bit, but finally I wanted to congratulate you and your son for putting so much effort, thought, and research int0 creating an good environment for this tortoise --- he is very fortunate to have found a home with you. Please don't hesitate to ask any more questions, and we'll do our best to answer them.

Nina
P.S. Where are you in Northern Indiana? I lived in what was then called Indiana Harbor (a suburb of East Chicago, I think), from the ages of 4 or 5 to about 12, many, many years ago. I've lived in the UK since 1971, but I remember living in the shadow of the Inland Steel Company, which was not ideal conditions for tortoises or humans, but I also remember some lovely farming country in Northern Indiana too.

[sulcata310]

Thanks so much Nina!

I appreciate all this info.

My father will be pleased, as his ornamental installations of Northern sea oats have become quite invasive.

The tortoise came to us with a profoundly pyramided shell.
I fretted so at first that my teenager sagely stated that worrying won’t change anything. (Neither does venting)
I’m trying to channel my concern into mindfulness and education.

Your site is invaluable!
Thanks again -jc

[Nina]

Hi JC,

I just added a P.S. to my post above yours, about Northern Indiana. We lived there until I was about 12 and then moved to Park Forest, Illinois, a southern suburb of Chicago.
By the way, I meant to ask -- what is the name of your Sulcata (always nice to know that)?

Nina

[sulcata310]

He came with the name Oppie, but my son has been calling him Buddy (Mainly because when he picks him up to take him to his bath, he finds himself saying, “Whoa Buddy.”
He’s quite large, perhaps the size of a medium ottoman. I’ve never attempted to pick him up.
Lucky me, my 15 year old scrubs the bathtub twice a week now; once before Buddy’s bath, and then immediately after.

Buddy’s not fond of his baths.
The first time he stood as tall as tortoisely possible, until that became tiresome.

Odd question (bath related) - when he came to us, he had spots under his shell, on his tail and on one leg that appeared badly soiled (poop & bedding). This distressed my son. He wanted to scrub him clean, using a plastic brush.
I forbid it. As the bath was already stressful.
I insisted on him making the best out of a soak and washing with a cotton washcloth.
Am I being silly?
Is scrubbing ok?
I’m concerned that abraising him, in spite of his tough hide, would be stressful.
“If it takes 3-4 soaks before can fully remove the spot, so be it.” (Weekly bath only)
If I’m full of beans, I have no trouble humbly updating my son. He’s the primary caretaker.
Buddy will take food from my son’s hand.
When I offer it, he pulls his head back towards his shell. We’re still getting to know each other.

Jasmine

[sulcata310]

Oh, we live in Elkhart, IN.
Elkhart is 15-20 minutes South from the Michigan State line and 25-30 minutes East of the Notre Dame campus (in South Bend,IN)

We live in town, in an urban area, but have a lovely piece of property, fenced in, on a lone wooded knoll. It sits on the rim of the 100 year flood plain, a five minute walk to the St. Jo River.
We have a good sized yard with lots of space. Not sure on the parameter, but It takes about an hour & a half to two hours to mow fully, and 45 minutes to shovel the walks & drive.

Small world, huh?

[Nina]

Hi Jasmine,

I know where Elkhart and South Bend are and, yes, very small world! I stayed pretty much in the Midwest (went to college in Champaign/Urbana and then to Madison,Wisc.) before moving to the UK.

Re washing Buddy. What kind of spots are you washing off? Is it just dirt? (I'm assuming that these 'spots' aren't ticks or anything.) My philosophy is that no one gives them baths in the wild, and they don't lick themselves clean like cats, so when I bathe my tortoises it's just to give them a chance to drink (one of mine will drink from her bowl and the other one never will) and rehydrate, and maybe wash a bit of mud off, but I'm not bothered about washing them at all, or scrubbing them clean. Mine often put their head completely under water and then rub it with their front legs, and sort of clean their heads that way.

I don't think scrubbing them would be good for the skin. I do know that people who rescue tortoises that have had their shells oiled (something that should never be done because it clogs pores in the shell that allows a tortoise to thermoregulate), can gently scrub the shell with a soft toothbrush, warm water and a mild detergent to get the oil off, but I don't think that it's necessary for any other reason. If you want to wash his shell gently you can, but maybe not the skin (although that is just my thoughts on that and others may think differently).

Nina