Poorly Horsefield, desperate

[Tortmum8]

Hi.
At the end of Jan, my 18 month old horsefield, Tucker wouldn't open his eyes. He also stopped eating. Vet gave me some antibiotic drops and advised me to flush his eyes daily. His eyes would slightly open but not fully.
He hasn't eaten since 23rd Jan... which I think is because his eyes are closed. Before this he loved his food
The drops helped a bit but progress tapered. He then started on antibiotic IM injections every other day and had a few tube feeds as his weight was dropping.
They checked his poop and he needed worming, so that was done.
3 weeks ago they fitted a pharyngostomy tube because his weight was becoming a concern. At that point he went to oral antibiotics which he had through the line every other day (had his last one today) and is being fed critical care food prescribed by vets; emeraid it's called. He started on 0.3mls twice a day, slowly up to 0.6mls twice a day and as his weight is now up he is having 1ml twice a day. Weight on 23rd jan was 107g. It went down to 91g and is now back up to 105g as of last week.
Basking spot is around 34-35°C. Temp ranging in his viv between 26-32C. Humidity between 60-70. I use a basking flood bulb for heat (150w) and a uvb strip bulb for uvb.
Substrate is fine orchid bark (not using any sand or soil as advised early days by vets).
He has a humid hide.
Vets assuring me it takes time for reptiles to recover, esp when so small.
He has barely opened his eyes in the last two weeks. Still won't eat. I am soaking him at least twice a day; once in water with reptoboost and one baby carrot food soak a day.
He is barely moving around, probably because he can't see a thing. He is showing natural behaviours; burrowing, seeking heat/cooling himself etc. But isn't active like he was.
Is it worth asking vets to check his bloods?
Antibiotics stopped today because he has been on them so long vet wanted to give them a break. Surely they'd have worked by now??
I flush/clean eyes twice a day with saline prescribed by vet.
What am I missing? Its breaking my heart seeing him like this. Vet assured me we are not at the stage where they'd recommend PTS and said if they thought that would be best for him they'd definitely say. I feel so helpless. Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks🩵

[Nina]

Dear TortmumB,

Many thanks for contacting us, and i can understand your concern and stress at the state of your little Horsfield -- it really is heartbreaking to see them suffering and unwell, and it sounds like you are doing your very best for him.

First of all, I have a few questions. 34C - 35C is too warm, and can I ask how you are measuring the temperature? Is the thermometer mounted on a wall near the heat source? If so then can you take it off and hold it under the light at about the height of your tortoise's shell, and let us know what that temperature is? Also put the thermometer on the substrate under the light and measure it there as well. You don't want the temperature to be more than about 30 or 31C under the light and it should be about 20C at the cool end. Could you perhaps change your bulb from a 150W to a 100W or even 80W, to get the temperature down to no more than 30C directly below the light? 35C or 36C is actually a bit dangerous for tortoises, and especially for small ones.

From your description, it looks like you are keeping your tortoise in a vivarium. Unfortunately vivariums are very bad environments for tortoises. They are good for snakes and lizards but not good for tortoises and it is a shame that many people are sold vivariums and then end up with health problems with their tortoise. In the short term, if your vivarium has sliding glass doors on the front, can you take one or both of the off and put up a barrier of some sort just high enough to prevent your tortoise from climbing out? That will give him the necessary air circulation that he needs and hopefully the cooler end of your viv will drop down to a better temperature (around 20C) too.
It is best to keep a tortoise in an open, tortoise table environment, but you could also convert your viv into something more suitable and I've attached some photos on how to do it.
[attachment=0]Viv Conversion.jpg[/attachment][attachment=1]Viv conversion.jpeg[/attachment]

Small tortoises dehydrate quickly under hot lights, so are you bathing him regularly in warm water, just up to his chin, in a container that he can't see out of (like an old washing up bowl)? That will enable him to rehydrate.

The other thing I am wondering about is whether you vet is an 'exotics' vet, trained in reptiles and other animals qualified as 'exotics'. It's really important to have a tortoise seen by a trained reptile vet, but if you have confidence in your vet then that is fine. If you aren't sure whether he or she is an 'exotics' vet, you can email me at nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk and I can check.

I was also concerned that your vet recommended orchid bark rather than a sand/soil mixture. Horsfields are a burrowing species and they like nothing better than to bury themselves in a sand/soil mixture, and in the wild a sandy soil is the substrate they live in. You do need to keep it from getting dusty by lightly spraying it, and it is great that you have a humid hide. The orchid bark won't do him any harm, but I'm concerned that a vet has recommended that over a soil-based substrate. Did he say why?

You probably already have one, but here is a care sheet for Horsfields, in case it provides any information you don't already have.
https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf

I know you must be frantic with worry, but we will try and help you as much as we can. My first thought is that it's important to get the temperature right, and see if that makes any difference in his behaviour. If you would like to chat on the phone about this (which is sometimes easier), just email me at nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk and you can either give me your phone number or I will give you mine and phone you at a time that is convenient for you.

Unfortunately I am going into hospital for the day tomorrow for a mnior op and won't be able to look at a screen to view emails or posts for a day or so, but if you would like to chat on the phone, please let me know and I will do my best, as this must be a dreadful time for you. I will also ask my colleague, Lin, to look at this post and add her thoughts too. We will support you in any way we can, as it's obvious that you love this little tortoise very much.

Nina

[Tortmum8]

Thanks for replying Nina. I really appreciate it.
Advice that's out there is so conflicting and it's all so confusing. I will try and reply to all your questions...

So the temp directly under basking spot is at the height of Tucker's shell (35°) and about 33-34 on the substrate directly underneath it.
When I had a 100w bulb in, I was struggling to get the warmer end of his vivarium above 30.

I have only recently increased the temp because I have read several different sources that a smaller/younger tortoise needs warmer temperatures and when they're ill they need even warmer still. I also wondered if it was why he was barely active, thinking that a warmer temp might help. It's only been the last few days his basking spot has been at 35ish but I will definitely not keep itnl that high.

Re vivarium; several people have said vivariums are easier for younger tortoises because it's easier to control temp and humidity.
The vets I use are on your database and they have a fab reputation with exotics. One of them does a lot of teaching up and down the UK along with one of the vet nurses; I am definitely confident with them. The vet didn't suggest orchid bark, she just suggested against using the sand for the time being while I am flushing his eyes etc as she didnt want sand sticking to his eyes. Orchid bark was suggested on another forum I asked for advice from... who shocked me a little as they recommended I didn't need to go back to the vets and I could sort the problem at home by doing carrot soaks

He is having regular soaks, minimum twice a day at the moment in a non see through container in warm water with reptoboost powder. And i try to give him 1 soak in a baby carrot food bath too. He is weeing and pooing normally.

Please do not worry about speaking to me tomorrow - worry about yourself and we can maybe speak mid week or towards the end of the week. Let me know when is good for you and I'll send you my number or I'll ring you either is fine. But dont try and do it tomorrow; this has been going on since 23rd Jan and it's not going to go away over night, and as worried as I am, I will be fine.

Thanks again so much, I appreciate you replying and all the info you have given. It's such a minefield with all the different bits of advice people give. I do love him to bits, and I just hate that he is suffering. It's such a shame on him and I wish I could make him better quicker.

Take care and good luck with your op tomorrow

[lin]

Hi TortmumB, it’s so traumatic for us when one of our pets are unwell but especially so a tortoise because they can’t express how the feel vocally.

I do agree with Nina’s very good advice, and I apologise in advance if I repeat something she has already said.

Regarding your question on how do we measure temp. It’s a digital thermometer with the ability to read high and low temperature. Like this one - https://tinyurl.com/59ppdmvy. It has a probe and under the basking spot it can be placed or balanced at about the height of your tortoises shell height and get an accurate reading like that. I believe you said your hot temps read 35C or 36C - well that is far too high, especially for a tortoise so young. We need to bring that right down to 30C and as Nina has said, depending on how you heat, a lower wattage bulb or if the bulb itself can be raised (so it’s further away in height) allowing a greater distance between the bulb and the tortoise. This really does need to be done immediately.
Once this is done and the heat is lower I wonder if Tucker might feel more comfortable and become more active. Worth a try.
The cooler end should also drop and we need to aim for 20C in that area. This will give a ground space that is the ideal temperatures for a tortoise to roan and find his own comfort zone.
The other thing is bathing, and especially under that heat a little one can dehydrate so fast, bath as much as you can in a nice warm dish high enough so he can’t escape from and keep it warm for the duration.

Can you send us a photo of Tuckers setup, so that we can see the position of the lights and mainly distances between the hot and cool areas and we can also see much better if there are any tweaks to help out.

TortmumB, I can’t understand why your vet has prescribed antibiotics without seeing the results of blood work. Different antibiotics are used to treat different problems and some don’t work for certain infections or disease. Quite puzzling really

IMO. I like wild and tortoises don’t get Orchid bark there, it will also grow mould if it’s wet and that can cause health risks. Horsfields wild substrate looks like the photo below. Again, I can’t understand why a vet would say no sand or soil. I agree if the sand isn’t childrens playsand it might cause problems but apparently there has not been any or minimal (I can’t remember now) reports of impaction using the correct sand. Maybe your vet has had experience with it.

I am so sorry TortmumB. I have gone on more than Nina has And there isn’t many people that does that - lol.
Look forward to your photos and I do hope this has made some sense.
Speak soon.
Lin

[Nina]

Thanks so much for such a full reply, and for privately sending me your vet details. That is an excellent vet, and so you are definitely in good hands.

I do think that 35C is too high, as it's recommended to have the temps around 30C (maybe a degree or so higher or lower). The advantage of a tortoise table is that you can raise or lower the height of the bulb to increase or decrease the temperature, whereas you can't do that with a viv, but maybe you could try and take one of the doors off and put a brick or anything in the opening so that he can't climb out, as that would increase the ventilation and possible lower the temperature. I think that a 150W bulb is too much in an enclosed viv. However, if he is on antibiotics, then I would ensure that the temperature doesn't drop below the low 20's during the night, as it's important to keep a tortoise warm while on antibiotics.

I'm not sure what carrot soaks are, but it is a common misconception that tortoises with eye problems are lacking in Vitamin A, and many vets who are not exotics specialists will try and give vitamin A injections for this. Vitamin A deficiency is rare in tortoises, and an overdose of Vitamin A can actually cause the same symptoms as a deficiency in Vitamin A, so it is not recommended except in cases where a deficiency is found. Soaking him in a baby carrot food bath will probably do no harm (it's not like having an injection, where it is concentrated), but I'm not sure why it is needed. Is this carrot food for babies that you are mixing in the water, or is it a special formula to put in baths for reptiles? Sorry for the confusion.

Soaking him in Reptoboost is a very good thing to do, so I would definitely keep that up.

Regarding the substrate, I do understand now why your vet suggested you don't use a sand/soil mixture if you are flushing his eyes, so that is fine. When he does recover you can always switch to a different substrate. Lin is right in saying that any wood chip substrate runs the risk of growing mould if it is too damp. Does his humid hide have the orchid bark as a substrate? On the other hand, in such a warm environment as his viv, it's a good idea to have a humid hide and so I think it is fine to keep it, as long as no mould is growing.

It seems to me like you've done everything right and are doing all you can for him so just take heart and keep up the love and care that you are giving him. And you are right about all the conflicting information on the internet - -it's one of the reasons we started The Tortoise Table, as there was so much bad information out there. I'm glad that you have a really good vet and please keep us posted (and ask any questions you want), and we'll support you in any way we can.

Nina