Not eating
Not eating
I have had my Horsfield for 1 week. It is 7 months old. It is housed in a tortoise table, correct lamps/ checked temperatures etc. since getting it home, he has been more lethargic every day, and is not eating. I had it out in the garden in the sun twice this week and it enjoyed having a mooch around, but back in the den it seems to want to hide in dark corners and sleep. It weighed 43 grams on the day it came home and in a week has lost 2 grams. I have read everything on the internet about husbandry, feeding guidelines etc but can’t seem to encourage it to eat at all. It has had a warm bath every day which I read helps with stress, and has had a poo every day. Can anyone help or give me any ideas? I contacted the pet shop today where came from and they suggested it might be hibernating??? Stressed. Or take it to a vet !!!
Re: Not eating
Hi Mrsrutty, and welcome to The Tortoise Table!
First of all, it's great that you have your tortoise in a table (and not a vivarium), and also that you are giving him baths, which will keep him well hydrated. Tortoises can go a long time without eating but they can dehydrate easily indoors under lights. It's also super that you have had him outdoors and that he was less lethargic there. Also, if he has been having poos then he must have eaten something, because if he had no food going in then nothing would be coming out
(having said that, tortoises have slow digestive systems and so he might be pooing food he ate before you got him).
The most common cause of lethargy in tortoises is temperature and light levels. If it is too hot or too cool then the tortoise can become lethargic. Can you tell me how you are measuring the temperature in his table? It should be measured directly under the heat/light lamp and measured at the height of the tortoise's shell (a thermometer mounted on a nearby wall will not give an accurate measurement and will read several degrees cooler).
You are aiming for a temperature of 30C directly under the lamp and 20C at the cool end. If the temperature in the room that the table is in gets warmer or cooler then that can have an effect on the temperature in the table, and you need to be able to raise your lamp to lower the temperature or lower the lamp to make it warmer. What wattage is the bulb you are using?
I'm a bit worried that the pet shop told you that your tortoise is wanting to hibernate. He will only do that if the hours of light diminish and the temperature drops, and it usually happens in the autumn.
The other thing that can cause lethargy is a heavy load of worms. It's fairly common and easily treated, and you can either take a sample of poo to a vet for testing, or you can send one off yourself (there is a company that does this and I can give you details if you want (they provide a container for sending the sample off). The vet you see needs to be what they call an ''exotics' vet, which means he has been trained to deal with reptiles, birds, etc., and we have a list of recommended vets on our website, organised by county, here https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... s-by-area/ . But I wouldn't contact a vet yet -- let's see first if we can identify another cause of his lethargy and make sure the temperatures and light levels are right. If you could send us a photo of your set-up, we could perhaps suggest a tweak that might sort things out.
Tips to try and get him to eat. What have you been tempting him with? Are there any dandelions in your garden (most tortoises love dandelion flowers and leaves too). Try offering him food with your hand. We don't normally advise hand feeding because tortoises do like it and if they are hand fed all the time then they won't eat by themselves, but in an emergency it can work. Also, try slicing a cucumber and squeezing some juice from it on leaves or flowers that you are offering him (they love cucumber too).
You probably already have a care sheet, but there are some bad ones circulating on the internet, so here's a link to a pretty good one: https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf
Sorry for the long email, but I know how stressful it is when your tortoise is having problems and I wanted to give you lots of information to start with. Also, if this is the first time you've used our Forum, then when you are typing a message or response, just below the box you're typing in there are five little boxes you can tick -- tick the one that says 'notify me when a reply is posted', and you'll get an email as soon as someone responds to your post.
Nina
First of all, it's great that you have your tortoise in a table (and not a vivarium), and also that you are giving him baths, which will keep him well hydrated. Tortoises can go a long time without eating but they can dehydrate easily indoors under lights. It's also super that you have had him outdoors and that he was less lethargic there. Also, if he has been having poos then he must have eaten something, because if he had no food going in then nothing would be coming out
(having said that, tortoises have slow digestive systems and so he might be pooing food he ate before you got him).The most common cause of lethargy in tortoises is temperature and light levels. If it is too hot or too cool then the tortoise can become lethargic. Can you tell me how you are measuring the temperature in his table? It should be measured directly under the heat/light lamp and measured at the height of the tortoise's shell (a thermometer mounted on a nearby wall will not give an accurate measurement and will read several degrees cooler).
You are aiming for a temperature of 30C directly under the lamp and 20C at the cool end. If the temperature in the room that the table is in gets warmer or cooler then that can have an effect on the temperature in the table, and you need to be able to raise your lamp to lower the temperature or lower the lamp to make it warmer. What wattage is the bulb you are using?
I'm a bit worried that the pet shop told you that your tortoise is wanting to hibernate. He will only do that if the hours of light diminish and the temperature drops, and it usually happens in the autumn.
The other thing that can cause lethargy is a heavy load of worms. It's fairly common and easily treated, and you can either take a sample of poo to a vet for testing, or you can send one off yourself (there is a company that does this and I can give you details if you want (they provide a container for sending the sample off). The vet you see needs to be what they call an ''exotics' vet, which means he has been trained to deal with reptiles, birds, etc., and we have a list of recommended vets on our website, organised by county, here https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... s-by-area/ . But I wouldn't contact a vet yet -- let's see first if we can identify another cause of his lethargy and make sure the temperatures and light levels are right. If you could send us a photo of your set-up, we could perhaps suggest a tweak that might sort things out.
Tips to try and get him to eat. What have you been tempting him with? Are there any dandelions in your garden (most tortoises love dandelion flowers and leaves too). Try offering him food with your hand. We don't normally advise hand feeding because tortoises do like it and if they are hand fed all the time then they won't eat by themselves, but in an emergency it can work. Also, try slicing a cucumber and squeezing some juice from it on leaves or flowers that you are offering him (they love cucumber too).
You probably already have a care sheet, but there are some bad ones circulating on the internet, so here's a link to a pretty good one: https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf
Sorry for the long email, but I know how stressful it is when your tortoise is having problems and I wanted to give you lots of information to start with. Also, if this is the first time you've used our Forum, then when you are typing a message or response, just below the box you're typing in there are five little boxes you can tick -- tick the one that says 'notify me when a reply is posted', and you'll get an email as soon as someone responds to your post.
Nina
Re: Not eating
Thank you for your speedy response.
I am using an 80w UVA/UVB/IR heat lamp which came a a starter package so I assumed it was the correct size bulb for the size of tabla, lamp is set approx 20 cms above a basking slate. I have checked the temperature using a probe thermometer at shell height.
I have tried dandelion flowers and leaves, it took one bite from the flower and walked away. I have put fresh bits in throughout the day. I am using the same pellets it had in the shop, moistened with water but I have also tried a squashed blueberry mixed in. Kale, lambs lettuce , parsley, and cucumber. It has eaten a small amount of cucumber and 3-4 pellets since my original post ant has then slept the rest of the time, re positioning once. It sleeps either under the log or digs into the substrate in the corner of the den, it occasionally goes into the bed which has substrate and edible bedding.
I am using an 80w UVA/UVB/IR heat lamp which came a a starter package so I assumed it was the correct size bulb for the size of tabla, lamp is set approx 20 cms above a basking slate. I have checked the temperature using a probe thermometer at shell height.
I have tried dandelion flowers and leaves, it took one bite from the flower and walked away. I have put fresh bits in throughout the day. I am using the same pellets it had in the shop, moistened with water but I have also tried a squashed blueberry mixed in. Kale, lambs lettuce , parsley, and cucumber. It has eaten a small amount of cucumber and 3-4 pellets since my original post ant has then slept the rest of the time, re positioning once. It sleeps either under the log or digs into the substrate in the corner of the den, it occasionally goes into the bed which has substrate and edible bedding.
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Re: Not eating
Oh dear, I just wrote a response and then it disappeared, so I'll try again.
Thanks for getting back to me and for sending the photo. You mentioned that you measured the temperature below the light, but can you tell me what that temperature was, and did you measure it at different times of the day (it will change, depending on the temperature in the room). I'm a little concerned that your bubl is 20cm above the substrate. Could you check the manufacturer's instructions (they should be on the box), as to what the minimum distance is to hang a new bulb (older UVB bulbs can be hung a bit closer, but it can be dangerous if a new UVB bulb is hung closer to the substrate than the manufacturer advises). I would have thought that the minimum distance for a new bulb would be around 30 cm (12"). Also, when the lamp has been on for some time, if you put your hand on the slate under the lamp, does it feel hot? Sometimes slates can heat up too much under lights and tortoises don't like walking on them.
Re feeding. I'm sorry that he's still not eating much and is still lethargic. Have you tried hand feeding? I would go easy on the fruit (you mentioned blueberries and I think I can see a strawberry on the slate). Hermann's are not a fruit-eating species of tortoise. They like the taste of fruit, so a small amount can be used to administer medicine, or to get them feeding like you are doing, but their digestive systems aren't designed to cope with the natural sugars in fruit and it can disturb their natural gut flora and give them a tummy ache if they have too much. Did you try hand feeding him? Also, it's a good idea to check out any food on our database before offering it. For example, here is our entry for Parsley (which we don't recommend feeding): https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/pla ... nt=355&c=5 Having said that, I doubt that a bit of fruit would cause the symptoms you are seeing now. What pellets did the shop give you with his set-up?
If you are sure that the temperature is right (30C directly under the lamp and 20C at the cool end), and the slate isn't too hot for him to walk on, and you've tried everything else then I think maybe a visit to a vet is in order, but it must be to an 'exotics' vet, as ordinary vets don't have the training in reptile medicine and can sometimes make mistakes. Did you check out the list of recommended vets on our website https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... s-by-area/ ? If you can't find one then let me know where you live and I'll see if we can fine one near you.
Very young tortoises do sleep a lot, but not as much as yours is doing, and lots of tortoises experience some problems settling in, but we will do everything we can to get your little one back on track again (and sorry for all of the questions).
Nina
Thanks for getting back to me and for sending the photo. You mentioned that you measured the temperature below the light, but can you tell me what that temperature was, and did you measure it at different times of the day (it will change, depending on the temperature in the room). I'm a little concerned that your bubl is 20cm above the substrate. Could you check the manufacturer's instructions (they should be on the box), as to what the minimum distance is to hang a new bulb (older UVB bulbs can be hung a bit closer, but it can be dangerous if a new UVB bulb is hung closer to the substrate than the manufacturer advises). I would have thought that the minimum distance for a new bulb would be around 30 cm (12"). Also, when the lamp has been on for some time, if you put your hand on the slate under the lamp, does it feel hot? Sometimes slates can heat up too much under lights and tortoises don't like walking on them.
Re feeding. I'm sorry that he's still not eating much and is still lethargic. Have you tried hand feeding? I would go easy on the fruit (you mentioned blueberries and I think I can see a strawberry on the slate). Hermann's are not a fruit-eating species of tortoise. They like the taste of fruit, so a small amount can be used to administer medicine, or to get them feeding like you are doing, but their digestive systems aren't designed to cope with the natural sugars in fruit and it can disturb their natural gut flora and give them a tummy ache if they have too much. Did you try hand feeding him? Also, it's a good idea to check out any food on our database before offering it. For example, here is our entry for Parsley (which we don't recommend feeding): https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/pla ... nt=355&c=5 Having said that, I doubt that a bit of fruit would cause the symptoms you are seeing now. What pellets did the shop give you with his set-up?
If you are sure that the temperature is right (30C directly under the lamp and 20C at the cool end), and the slate isn't too hot for him to walk on, and you've tried everything else then I think maybe a visit to a vet is in order, but it must be to an 'exotics' vet, as ordinary vets don't have the training in reptile medicine and can sometimes make mistakes. Did you check out the list of recommended vets on our website https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... s-by-area/ ? If you can't find one then let me know where you live and I'll see if we can fine one near you.
Very young tortoises do sleep a lot, but not as much as yours is doing, and lots of tortoises experience some problems settling in, but we will do everything we can to get your little one back on track again (and sorry for all of the questions).
Nina
Re: Not eating
Hi
Temperatures were consistent throughout the day 30.5 and 21 when the D3 bulb was turned on/ 12 hours.
The info that came with the starter pack recommended 20cm height for an 80w bulb.
The slate temp was 33 and didn’t feel too hot to touch it does happily sit on the slate.
I have been hand feeding, I am aware that they are not fruit eating species and the strawberry was there to encourage it to eat, it hasn’t shown any interest in it.
The pellets were fruit and flower mix all natural ingredients, but again it doesn’t seem interested in them. I saw broccoli and red peppers in the vivarium at the shop but I’ve read that those aren’t suitable foods either.
Yesterday I tried dandelion flower and leaf, fresh picked mint , carnation, and cucumber again just for the hydration benefit. It only ate maybe a dozen small bites of the cucumber and nothing else.
Yesterday it did a massive amount of poo, which I squashed and tried to look for worms, but couldn’t see anything. It had another very lazy day, had a bit of a roam around out of the table but didn’t seem interested. Has had a bath this morning and one small poo, but I did notice 2 wee’s ! Left it to soak for a while hoping it would take on water as I have never seen it go to the water on the table.
It stayed basking for half hour or so then headed for its log , head first, and has been there since.
I have tried to contact a couple of vets this morning but they are closed for the bank holiday. I will contact again in the morning, I have found the one recommended on your sheet in Morpeth x
Temperatures were consistent throughout the day 30.5 and 21 when the D3 bulb was turned on/ 12 hours.
The info that came with the starter pack recommended 20cm height for an 80w bulb.
The slate temp was 33 and didn’t feel too hot to touch it does happily sit on the slate.
I have been hand feeding, I am aware that they are not fruit eating species and the strawberry was there to encourage it to eat, it hasn’t shown any interest in it.
The pellets were fruit and flower mix all natural ingredients, but again it doesn’t seem interested in them. I saw broccoli and red peppers in the vivarium at the shop but I’ve read that those aren’t suitable foods either.
Yesterday I tried dandelion flower and leaf, fresh picked mint , carnation, and cucumber again just for the hydration benefit. It only ate maybe a dozen small bites of the cucumber and nothing else.
Yesterday it did a massive amount of poo, which I squashed and tried to look for worms, but couldn’t see anything. It had another very lazy day, had a bit of a roam around out of the table but didn’t seem interested. Has had a bath this morning and one small poo, but I did notice 2 wee’s ! Left it to soak for a while hoping it would take on water as I have never seen it go to the water on the table.
It stayed basking for half hour or so then headed for its log , head first, and has been there since.
I have tried to contact a couple of vets this morning but they are closed for the bank holiday. I will contact again in the morning, I have found the one recommended on your sheet in Morpeth x
Re: Not eating
Thanks so much for answering my questions. Your temperatures sound fine, and it's good that the slate doesn't feel hot.
Using the strawberry to tempt it to eat in a situation like this is fine, and I'm not sure what to do, as tortoises will almost never refuse a strawberry. When he is eating again, I would ditch the fruit and flower pellets (or just give the odd one every now and then, because pellets in general are too high in protein and have stuff in them (like soy, corn, etc.) that aren't great.
The fact that he is pooing means he must have eaten a fair amount, but it's a bit of a mystery as to where it has come from -- although as I mentioned before their digestive systems are slow. Regarding the poo -- you really need to look at a sample under a microscope to see how heavy a load of eggs are in the poo. If you see actual worms then it means he has a super, super heavy load, and mostly heavy loads just produce eggs.
It seems to me that you have done everything possible, and now is the time to see the vet. Do bring a sample of poo with you (you can keep it in a sealed container overnight in the fridge if necessary), as that will enable them to check for worms and other parasites like protozoa. The Morpeth vet is excellent, and make sure you tell them that you have a tortoise and so will need to see the 'exotics' vet.
Please let us know how you get on, and fingers crossed it's just something small and he'll be right as rain soon. Even if his lethargy is only shyness and getting adjusted to this new surroundings, it's not a bad idea to have him checked by a vet anyway.
Nina
Using the strawberry to tempt it to eat in a situation like this is fine, and I'm not sure what to do, as tortoises will almost never refuse a strawberry. When he is eating again, I would ditch the fruit and flower pellets (or just give the odd one every now and then, because pellets in general are too high in protein and have stuff in them (like soy, corn, etc.) that aren't great.
The fact that he is pooing means he must have eaten a fair amount, but it's a bit of a mystery as to where it has come from -- although as I mentioned before their digestive systems are slow. Regarding the poo -- you really need to look at a sample under a microscope to see how heavy a load of eggs are in the poo. If you see actual worms then it means he has a super, super heavy load, and mostly heavy loads just produce eggs.
It seems to me that you have done everything possible, and now is the time to see the vet. Do bring a sample of poo with you (you can keep it in a sealed container overnight in the fridge if necessary), as that will enable them to check for worms and other parasites like protozoa. The Morpeth vet is excellent, and make sure you tell them that you have a tortoise and so will need to see the 'exotics' vet.
Please let us know how you get on, and fingers crossed it's just something small and he'll be right as rain soon. Even if his lethargy is only shyness and getting adjusted to this new surroundings, it's not a bad idea to have him checked by a vet anyway.
Nina
Re: Not eating
Went to the vets yesterday.
Advised me to change my lighting to fluorescent uv strip light with separate heat lamp. Also the temp should be nearer to 35-40 degrees apparently
Also advised some ‘red bull’ power in the bath 3 times a day to rehydrate and absorb glucose etc to encourage feeding.
It has been eating but only when I hand feed and appears slightly more active.
Advised me to change my lighting to fluorescent uv strip light with separate heat lamp. Also the temp should be nearer to 35-40 degrees apparently
Also advised some ‘red bull’ power in the bath 3 times a day to rehydrate and absorb glucose etc to encourage feeding.
It has been eating but only when I hand feed and appears slightly more active.
Re: Not eating
I'm really surprised (and slightly alarmed) at the temperatures that the vet recommended (I'm assuming that it is the vet in Morpeth you went to). I've never heard a vet recommend those temperatures, and my understanding has always been that once the temperatures are above 35 it is dangerous for tortoises and around 37 can be lethal for them. Small tortoises (like your 7 month old) will dehydrate very quickly in that heat. This is why in the wild they tend to come out to feed in the early mornings and early evenings when the temperatures are a bit lower.
Obviously having baths during the day will help to rehydrate, but I'm just slight worried about those high temperatures (at those temperatures most tortoises would start to aestivate). Did he say what temperature the cool end of the enclosure should be? Because tortoises are ectothermic, it's really important that they are able to move from cooler areas to warmer areas and back again to thermoregulate, and if it is 38C or 40C under the light then I think it is going to be difficult to get a temp of around 20C at the cool end, unless your table is very long.
What is 'red bull' power that you are putting in the bath -- is it that drink? I find this advice really odd, as tortoises generally don't tolerate sugar very well, but I will check it out and see if other vets have recommended that and get back to you. I'd be really grateful if you could email me privately and tell me the name of the vet you saw -- my email is nina_curtis@hotmail.com , I'm just curious.
Regarding the lighting and heating. I personally prefer having a separate heat and UVB source, so I use a fluorescent tube (get one as long as your table if possible), plus a separate bulb for light and heat. That enables me to raise and lower the heat/light bulb to adjust temperatures without moving the UVB source too close or too far away. But having said that, it's just a preference on my part and certainly many people use the all-in-one mercury vapour bulbs with great success. If you get the fluorescent tube, then get a reflector that clips on to the top (that will protect your eyes and direct more of the rays down into the table) and get a straight tube (i.e. not one of the mini tubes that are curled, a bit like a low energy light bulb).
Nina
Obviously having baths during the day will help to rehydrate, but I'm just slight worried about those high temperatures (at those temperatures most tortoises would start to aestivate). Did he say what temperature the cool end of the enclosure should be? Because tortoises are ectothermic, it's really important that they are able to move from cooler areas to warmer areas and back again to thermoregulate, and if it is 38C or 40C under the light then I think it is going to be difficult to get a temp of around 20C at the cool end, unless your table is very long.
What is 'red bull' power that you are putting in the bath -- is it that drink? I find this advice really odd, as tortoises generally don't tolerate sugar very well, but I will check it out and see if other vets have recommended that and get back to you. I'd be really grateful if you could email me privately and tell me the name of the vet you saw -- my email is nina_curtis@hotmail.com , I'm just curious.
Regarding the lighting and heating. I personally prefer having a separate heat and UVB source, so I use a fluorescent tube (get one as long as your table if possible), plus a separate bulb for light and heat. That enables me to raise and lower the heat/light bulb to adjust temperatures without moving the UVB source too close or too far away. But having said that, it's just a preference on my part and certainly many people use the all-in-one mercury vapour bulbs with great success. If you get the fluorescent tube, then get a reflector that clips on to the top (that will protect your eyes and direct more of the rays down into the table) and get a straight tube (i.e. not one of the mini tubes that are curled, a bit like a low energy light bulb).
Nina
Re: Not eating
Hiya.
I have just seen this and haven’t read the whole thread thoroughly- but I do agree with Nina in saying one so young will dehydrate quickly in those new temps, possibly with disastrous effects. I would keep them at what you had them to be safe.
Red Bull!!! No, I can see it will give the glucose needed to tempt eating but I would never bath in red bull when there is the Reptiboost product that has been made specifically for the reason of boosting the tortoises energy and system to add the glucose, minerals and other important things.
Just my thoughts.
Lin
I have just seen this and haven’t read the whole thread thoroughly- but I do agree with Nina in saying one so young will dehydrate quickly in those new temps, possibly with disastrous effects. I would keep them at what you had them to be safe.
Red Bull!!! No, I can see it will give the glucose needed to tempt eating but I would never bath in red bull when there is the Reptiboost product that has been made specifically for the reason of boosting the tortoises energy and system to add the glucose, minerals and other important things.
Just my thoughts.
Lin
Re: Not eating
Just to confirm, I wasn’t told to bath it in Red Bull! That was a flippant comment.
The vet recommended Reptoboost.
Sorry
The vet recommended Reptoboost.
Sorry
Re: Not eating
Ha, ha, well that's a relief. 
I'm still a bit concerned about the high temperatures that were recommended. If your hot area is 35C - 40C can you tell me what temperature the cool area is? How is he doing today? It's very sunny and warm here in Oxford today, and mine are really enjoying being in the garden.
Nina
I'm still a bit concerned about the high temperatures that were recommended. If your hot area is 35C - 40C can you tell me what temperature the cool area is? How is he doing today? It's very sunny and warm here in Oxford today, and mine are really enjoying being in the garden.Nina
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