Tortoise not eating for a long time
Tortoise not eating for a long time
Hi, I'm very concerned about our tortoise Timmy and what to do for the best - any advice offered would be so appreciated. We got him 2 years ago as a rescue and believe him to be about 4 years old now. We haven't hibernated him yet but we were considering it for this winter. However, this year he has not eaten well at all. His appetite dropped off about December time last year, which we considered normal for the time of year. However, it failed to pick up again in the spring. I took him to the vets in late April to get him checked out, and the vet said he seemed to be in good health and gave him a vit B12 injection as an appetite stimulant. Very slowly in the weeks that followed his appetite picked up and for a few months his appetite was OK (not emptying his bowl like he had the previous summer but eating most days). However, from late July onwards it dropped off again and during July/Aug some days he didn't eat at all. Through Sept this became most days. We have been monitoring his weight and he has gone from 296g in July to 290g now, so not a massive loss, but I don't know how as he really has eaten so very little in the last few months. We took him to the vets two weeks ago to get advice and get him checked out. Vet said he seemed OK (checked mouth, all clear; well hydrated). We need to take a poo sample for parasite load testing, but the problem is he is not pooing due to lack of anything going in. We are bathing him 3-4 times a week in Reptoboost since taking him to the vets and have attempted to syringe feed him with something the vet gave us, but we have found it impossible to prise his mouth open to get it in and it seems very distressing for him. The vet said we could try giving him a short hibernation (3-4 weeks) but I'm worried about hibernating him given he has not been eating for so long, and has never hibernated before. Plus would hibernating him now and waking him up in the middle of winter really be a good idea? He lives on a tortoise table (in the summer he spends time in the day in a run on the lawn). We let him roam indoors during the winter for an hour or so a day around the kitchen, supervised (we only let him out when we are there to keep an eye on him). He basks for about an hour in the morning under his UV lamp then retreats for the rest of the day other than we he is out for a wonder (which we usually wake him up for). Thanks in advance for any suggestions or advice.
Re: Tortoise not eating for a long time
Hi and welcome to The Tortoise Table (sorry, I don't know your name).
I can understand your worry, but It's a common problem for tortoises to eat less as the days grow shorter, and it's something that we all experience. However, Timmy should have been eating better throughout the year and especially in the summer, and I think I would hesitate to hibernate him this year, because it's really important that tortoises are in the best of health when they hibernate, and you can't be sure that this is true of Timmy.
Can you tell me what species his is? If you're not sure then send us a photo and we'll ID him for you. Also, can you tell me what the temperature is in his indoor enclosure, directly under the heat source, and measured at the height of his shell (not measured by a thermometer mounted on a nearby wall). The reason I'm asking this is that temperature and light levels are really important and can have a huge effect on a tortoise's appetite and energy levels. You want to aim for a temperature of around 29C or 30C directly under the light/heat lamp, and about 20C at the cooler end, and it's important to have as bright a light as possible. If you can send a photo of his set-up, we might be able to suggest a few tweaks to improve it.
Having said all that, my tortoises have good heat and light levels and they are still refusing to wake up in the morning these days -- they just seem to sense when the days are shorter and they want to hibernate. I'm not ready for mine to hibernate yet, so I wake them up each day, put them under the lamp to warm up, and feed them. I'm lucky that mine will still eat (I know some won't), and then they go straight back to their hides and sleep.
What are you feeding Timmy? Does he have a favourite food that you could tempt him with? Tortoises do love to be hand fed, so you could try something that he really likes and hand feed it to him, just to get him going. Sometimes rubbing a cucumber on some food will tempt them, or cucumber (peeled) chopped up really finely and mixed with the rest of his food can be attractive.
I know how concerned you must be, and I think we will be able to get Timmy going again for you. I look forward to hearing what the temps are and seeing a photo of his set-up. Regarding hibernation -- you do have to deprive a tortoise of food for a certain period before hibernating (so that there is no food in his stomach when he goes into hibernation), and you also need an appropriate place for him to hibernate. If it does turn out that he can be hibernated, where were you planning to do it?
I'm a little concerned about the vitamin B12 injection, as usually vitamin injections for tortoises are not advisable, unless a deficiency n that vitamin has been diagnosed. Can I just check that your vet is an 'exotics/reptile' vet, rather than an ordinary vet? Unfortunately ordinary vets have very little training in reptiles and we always encourage people to use an 'exotics' vet -- and we have a list of these on our website here https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... s-by-area/ If you want to email me the name of your vet, I can check them out to ensure they are trained to treat reptiles -- send to nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk They are probably fine, but it never hurts to check.
So sorry for such a long message!
Nina
I can understand your worry, but It's a common problem for tortoises to eat less as the days grow shorter, and it's something that we all experience. However, Timmy should have been eating better throughout the year and especially in the summer, and I think I would hesitate to hibernate him this year, because it's really important that tortoises are in the best of health when they hibernate, and you can't be sure that this is true of Timmy.
Can you tell me what species his is? If you're not sure then send us a photo and we'll ID him for you. Also, can you tell me what the temperature is in his indoor enclosure, directly under the heat source, and measured at the height of his shell (not measured by a thermometer mounted on a nearby wall). The reason I'm asking this is that temperature and light levels are really important and can have a huge effect on a tortoise's appetite and energy levels. You want to aim for a temperature of around 29C or 30C directly under the light/heat lamp, and about 20C at the cooler end, and it's important to have as bright a light as possible. If you can send a photo of his set-up, we might be able to suggest a few tweaks to improve it.
Having said all that, my tortoises have good heat and light levels and they are still refusing to wake up in the morning these days -- they just seem to sense when the days are shorter and they want to hibernate. I'm not ready for mine to hibernate yet, so I wake them up each day, put them under the lamp to warm up, and feed them. I'm lucky that mine will still eat (I know some won't), and then they go straight back to their hides and sleep.
What are you feeding Timmy? Does he have a favourite food that you could tempt him with? Tortoises do love to be hand fed, so you could try something that he really likes and hand feed it to him, just to get him going. Sometimes rubbing a cucumber on some food will tempt them, or cucumber (peeled) chopped up really finely and mixed with the rest of his food can be attractive.
I know how concerned you must be, and I think we will be able to get Timmy going again for you. I look forward to hearing what the temps are and seeing a photo of his set-up. Regarding hibernation -- you do have to deprive a tortoise of food for a certain period before hibernating (so that there is no food in his stomach when he goes into hibernation), and you also need an appropriate place for him to hibernate. If it does turn out that he can be hibernated, where were you planning to do it?
I'm a little concerned about the vitamin B12 injection, as usually vitamin injections for tortoises are not advisable, unless a deficiency n that vitamin has been diagnosed. Can I just check that your vet is an 'exotics/reptile' vet, rather than an ordinary vet? Unfortunately ordinary vets have very little training in reptiles and we always encourage people to use an 'exotics' vet -- and we have a list of these on our website here https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... s-by-area/ If you want to email me the name of your vet, I can check them out to ensure they are trained to treat reptiles -- send to nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk They are probably fine, but it never hurts to check.
So sorry for such a long message!
Nina
Re: Tortoise not eating for a long time
Hi Nina,
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and with so much thought, no need to apologise for the long message - I'm usually pretty good at those! I'm Julie by the way. Timmy is a Horsfield's (I really should have put that in my original post sorry). It's really helpful to know you have similar thoughts on hibernating him at the moment given he hasn't been eating, thank you.
His preferred food when he does eat is romaine lettuce and butternut squash, but we've tried him with lambs leaf lettuce (it piqued his interest initially but then faded again) and also offer kale and cucumber daily which he does eat (when he is eating), as well as dandelion leaves when available. Hand feeding was working for a little while but isn't anymore. Between me, my husband and two sons we try to tempt him multiple times a day but he's just not taking it anymore.
His temperature is around 31 degrees in the main open area and about 24 away from the lamps, so perhaps a little too warm? We leave the ceramic heat lamp on 24/7 and the UV lamp (D3 UV Basking Lamp 100W) goes on about 7am each morning and off at about 8 pm at night. I've attached a photo of his setup.
Thanks for the email address, I've emailed you re the vet we go to.
Re where to hibernate him, the only place where we can offer him a reliably consistent temperature of around 6 degrees would be in the fridge, but I know we would need to be mindful of humidity levels. We have a porch that remains cool (but still well above 10+ degrees), and our garden sheds have fluctuating temperatures depending on the weather. We have considered potentially using a hibernation service as we're worried about getting it right but these are quite costly and if we are able to do it ourselves would prefer too. It's just the fear of getting something wrong, he's a very precious family member!
Thanks again for your help,
Julie
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and with so much thought, no need to apologise for the long message - I'm usually pretty good at those! I'm Julie by the way. Timmy is a Horsfield's (I really should have put that in my original post sorry). It's really helpful to know you have similar thoughts on hibernating him at the moment given he hasn't been eating, thank you.
His preferred food when he does eat is romaine lettuce and butternut squash, but we've tried him with lambs leaf lettuce (it piqued his interest initially but then faded again) and also offer kale and cucumber daily which he does eat (when he is eating), as well as dandelion leaves when available. Hand feeding was working for a little while but isn't anymore. Between me, my husband and two sons we try to tempt him multiple times a day but he's just not taking it anymore.
His temperature is around 31 degrees in the main open area and about 24 away from the lamps, so perhaps a little too warm? We leave the ceramic heat lamp on 24/7 and the UV lamp (D3 UV Basking Lamp 100W) goes on about 7am each morning and off at about 8 pm at night. I've attached a photo of his setup.
Thanks for the email address, I've emailed you re the vet we go to.
Re where to hibernate him, the only place where we can offer him a reliably consistent temperature of around 6 degrees would be in the fridge, but I know we would need to be mindful of humidity levels. We have a porch that remains cool (but still well above 10+ degrees), and our garden sheds have fluctuating temperatures depending on the weather. We have considered potentially using a hibernation service as we're worried about getting it right but these are quite costly and if we are able to do it ourselves would prefer too. It's just the fear of getting something wrong, he's a very precious family member!
Thanks again for your help,
Julie
- Attachments
-
Re: Tortoise not eating for a long time
Hi Julie,
Thanks so much for getting back to me, and including the photo of Timmy's set-up. Well, the fact that he is a Horsfield explains a lot. My tortoises are also Horsfields, and they are known to have a very strong hibernation instinct (stronger than some other species), so it can be really difficult.
First of all, your set-up looks good, if a bit small (tortoises do get bored in small areas and when they are bored they just sleep a lot and can lose their appetite), but I don't think that is the cause of his current behaviour. It sounds to me like he has just gone into hibernation mode, and if you want to keep him awake then you do need to get him eating again. His diet could do with being broadened, as romaine lettuce and butternut squash aren't ideal. Romaine is one of the best of the lettuces, but all lettuces are what we call 'wet food' and they go through the tortoise's digestive system too quickly (tortoises are designed to digest very fibrous matter slowly), so after you do get him eating again then I would definitely add more weeds (plantain, sowthistle, etc. -- flowers, and other acceptable food -- you can use the filter tool on our website to produce lists of acceptable food, or type in the name of any plant to see if it's edible). Does he have a calcium supplement that you add to his food? Having said all that, now probably isn't the time to move him on to a better diet (but when you are ready, here is our article on how to do that https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... -new-diet/ .
Your temperatures sound pretty too to me, but can I check how you are measuring the warm side of his table? If you are measuring 31C with a thermometer fixed to a wall of the table then it will be much hotter directly under the lamp, and it could be too warm for him. The thermometer we usually recommend is a fridge/freezer thermometer iwth a display unit that can sit outside the table and then a probe at the end of a wire that hangs down into the table in the circle of light under the lamp, and at the height of the tortoise's tail -- something like this (although you can get them in many places): https://www.pharmacy-equipment.co.uk/pr ... er-tmm105/ The added advantage is that it has a Max/Min function, so you can see how hot or cold it got since you last looked (and if your temperature at night doesn't drop below about 14C, then you don't need any heat at night, as tortoises are fine with a lower temperature at night.
I can only think that hand feeding is the way to get him going again. If cucumber doesn't work then you could try something that we don't usually recommend, which is to rub a tiny bit of strawberry onto the food that you are trying to feed him. As I'm sure you know, Horsfields should not be fed fruit, as their digestive systems don't cope well with the natural sugars in fruit, but they do love it and in an emergency this can get them started eating again (not a lot of strawberry juice -- just a bit so that he can smell it).
If you do want to hibernate him then you need to know when the last time was that he took on any food at all. At Timmy's weight, I would think he would need two and a half weeks or a bit more with no food at all. During that period his hours of heat and light should gradually diminish so that by the end he is having almost no heat or light and is in a cool room, and then he can go into the fridge. You are right in thinking that a fridge (it must be one without an ice making compartment) is the best place to hibernate, and you can add a little bowl of water sitting on a shelf to add a bit of humidity. Here are links to information sheets on preparation for hibernation (winding down), fridge hibernation, and waking up from hibernation. I think that for a first hibernation you could aim for 6 - 8 weeks, and make sure that Timmy is well hydrated when he goes into the fridge as you want him to go in with a full bladder and an empty stomach. Note that the 'weeks' given in the preparation sheet can be calculated using fewer than 7 days each -- so that with a small tortoise like Timmy you might be using 'weeks' that are four or five days long instead of 7 days.
https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... cedure.pdf
https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... Sept16.pdf
https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 080608.pdf
Thanks for sending me your vet details. For some reason they don't list their staff like most vets do, but they do say they deal with 'exotics' so it is probably OK -- it's just that the seem to emphasise fish and birds in their description of services, so I'm not sure how strong they are on reptiles.
Apologies for another long email. If you woud like to chat over the phone sometime (sometimes that is easier) I'd be happy to phone you at your convenience (just email me your phone number, or I ccould send you mine if you prefer.
Nina
Thanks so much for getting back to me, and including the photo of Timmy's set-up. Well, the fact that he is a Horsfield explains a lot. My tortoises are also Horsfields, and they are known to have a very strong hibernation instinct (stronger than some other species), so it can be really difficult.
First of all, your set-up looks good, if a bit small (tortoises do get bored in small areas and when they are bored they just sleep a lot and can lose their appetite), but I don't think that is the cause of his current behaviour. It sounds to me like he has just gone into hibernation mode, and if you want to keep him awake then you do need to get him eating again. His diet could do with being broadened, as romaine lettuce and butternut squash aren't ideal. Romaine is one of the best of the lettuces, but all lettuces are what we call 'wet food' and they go through the tortoise's digestive system too quickly (tortoises are designed to digest very fibrous matter slowly), so after you do get him eating again then I would definitely add more weeds (plantain, sowthistle, etc. -- flowers, and other acceptable food -- you can use the filter tool on our website to produce lists of acceptable food, or type in the name of any plant to see if it's edible). Does he have a calcium supplement that you add to his food? Having said all that, now probably isn't the time to move him on to a better diet (but when you are ready, here is our article on how to do that https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... -new-diet/ .
Your temperatures sound pretty too to me, but can I check how you are measuring the warm side of his table? If you are measuring 31C with a thermometer fixed to a wall of the table then it will be much hotter directly under the lamp, and it could be too warm for him. The thermometer we usually recommend is a fridge/freezer thermometer iwth a display unit that can sit outside the table and then a probe at the end of a wire that hangs down into the table in the circle of light under the lamp, and at the height of the tortoise's tail -- something like this (although you can get them in many places): https://www.pharmacy-equipment.co.uk/pr ... er-tmm105/ The added advantage is that it has a Max/Min function, so you can see how hot or cold it got since you last looked (and if your temperature at night doesn't drop below about 14C, then you don't need any heat at night, as tortoises are fine with a lower temperature at night.
I can only think that hand feeding is the way to get him going again. If cucumber doesn't work then you could try something that we don't usually recommend, which is to rub a tiny bit of strawberry onto the food that you are trying to feed him. As I'm sure you know, Horsfields should not be fed fruit, as their digestive systems don't cope well with the natural sugars in fruit, but they do love it and in an emergency this can get them started eating again (not a lot of strawberry juice -- just a bit so that he can smell it).
If you do want to hibernate him then you need to know when the last time was that he took on any food at all. At Timmy's weight, I would think he would need two and a half weeks or a bit more with no food at all. During that period his hours of heat and light should gradually diminish so that by the end he is having almost no heat or light and is in a cool room, and then he can go into the fridge. You are right in thinking that a fridge (it must be one without an ice making compartment) is the best place to hibernate, and you can add a little bowl of water sitting on a shelf to add a bit of humidity. Here are links to information sheets on preparation for hibernation (winding down), fridge hibernation, and waking up from hibernation. I think that for a first hibernation you could aim for 6 - 8 weeks, and make sure that Timmy is well hydrated when he goes into the fridge as you want him to go in with a full bladder and an empty stomach. Note that the 'weeks' given in the preparation sheet can be calculated using fewer than 7 days each -- so that with a small tortoise like Timmy you might be using 'weeks' that are four or five days long instead of 7 days.
https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... cedure.pdf
https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... Sept16.pdf
https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 080608.pdf
Thanks for sending me your vet details. For some reason they don't list their staff like most vets do, but they do say they deal with 'exotics' so it is probably OK -- it's just that the seem to emphasise fish and birds in their description of services, so I'm not sure how strong they are on reptiles.
Apologies for another long email. If you woud like to chat over the phone sometime (sometimes that is easier) I'd be happy to phone you at your convenience (just email me your phone number, or I ccould send you mine if you prefer.
Nina
Re: Tortoise not eating for a long time
Hi Nina,
Thanks so much for taking the time to help us with this.
We've tried the cucumber juice suggestion with no success so far but will continue, and then try strawberry juice if we need to. Thanks also for the suggestions re broadening his diet, we will get started on that once he is eating again. We've never fed him fruit as we know the high sugar levels are not good for his tummy.
He has done a poo this morning and I'm about to drop that into the vets now to get it tested, so that feels like a step forward. If we are going to hibernate him (and thank you so much for all the information) I know we need to make sure there are no underlying health issues like high parasite load beforehand so at least we can progress that.
The thermometer we're using is one like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thermometer-Te ... op?ie=UTF8 so I think the right kind. I've turned his ceramic heat lamp off at the moment to see if that provides a more suitable temperature gradient across his enclosure as our house is naturally quite warm until the winter really sets in so perhaps we are overheating his enclosure a bit at the moment.
I think we'll see if we can get him eating again and see what the parasite load results are and take it from there. I really do appreciate your advice and the time you've taken. I may email you with my number and arrange a chat if we don't make any progress, it would be so helpful to chat to someone. All we want to do is the best thing by Timmy but it can feel like a bit of a minefield and the opportunity to speak to someone who really knows tortoises (and Horsfield's!) would be great.
Thank you again,
Julie
Thanks so much for taking the time to help us with this.
We've tried the cucumber juice suggestion with no success so far but will continue, and then try strawberry juice if we need to. Thanks also for the suggestions re broadening his diet, we will get started on that once he is eating again. We've never fed him fruit as we know the high sugar levels are not good for his tummy.
He has done a poo this morning and I'm about to drop that into the vets now to get it tested, so that feels like a step forward. If we are going to hibernate him (and thank you so much for all the information) I know we need to make sure there are no underlying health issues like high parasite load beforehand so at least we can progress that.
The thermometer we're using is one like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thermometer-Te ... op?ie=UTF8 so I think the right kind. I've turned his ceramic heat lamp off at the moment to see if that provides a more suitable temperature gradient across his enclosure as our house is naturally quite warm until the winter really sets in so perhaps we are overheating his enclosure a bit at the moment.
I think we'll see if we can get him eating again and see what the parasite load results are and take it from there. I really do appreciate your advice and the time you've taken. I may email you with my number and arrange a chat if we don't make any progress, it would be so helpful to chat to someone. All we want to do is the best thing by Timmy but it can feel like a bit of a minefield and the opportunity to speak to someone who really knows tortoises (and Horsfield's!) would be great.
Thank you again,
Julie
Re: Tortoise not eating for a long time
I do hope you're able to get Timmy eating again -- please let us know how it's going, and also if you want to chat about it (just contact me at nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk if you want to exchange numbers).
Nina
Nina
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 109 guests