Worrying about my new baby Leopard

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Laura0310
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Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Laura0310 » 28 Jan 2022, 10:53

Hi all, I am now the proud owner of a four month old. Was bought from a reptile shop last Sunday, 23rd Jan. Not new to reptile keeping as we have 20 snakes and have had lizards in the past but new to tortoise keeping. Have joined various groups and taken on advice. He is currently housed in a small tortoise table in our lounge, with basking area at 35 and cooler end 20-22. We have a ceramic lamp at the cooler end just in case the temp drops and we monitor it throughout the day. I have been attempting to forage some weeds and am also offering grass, dried flowers, lambs lettuce and dusting with calcium powder. I am also offering cucumber as a temporary measure for hydration and will take this away when he eats better. He has a cuttlefish also if he wants and hay which he hides under. Fresh water always. However, he is taking a while to settle in. I have seen him eat, but he doesn't bask so I am thinking he still feels insecure. Have noticed that his eyes although not sticky as far as I can see are very slow to fully open. Yesterday he was quite active but today more subdued. Working at home I can see a lot of what he is doing. I am still a little worried about him. Can I ask as I know they are all different, what your experiences were of your tortoises settling in and any hints and tips would be appreciated? I am leaving him alone and only approach the table for feeding and switching on/off heating sources etc.
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TortyPerson
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by TortyPerson » 02 Feb 2022, 15:43

Hi, I'm a bit of a newbie myself but just wanted to reply as I saw you're still waiting for responses. The experts here say tortoises dislike change and it's certainly true of our tortoise. When he first arrived, he was subdued for a few weeks and would only eat if fed treats by hand. We have had him 6 months now and he's settled down well. He now eats wild leaves all by himself and is much more active and curious, although he still has the odd quiet day. I'm sure your little guy will settle in soon. Anywy, hopefully one of the experts here will be able to advise you. Good luck with your tortoise.

TP

Laura0310
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Laura0310 » 02 Feb 2022, 16:49

Thank you so much for your experience. He seems a little brighter over the past few days and has been basking today which again is a step in the right direction. He feeds himself ok and hopefully that will increase with time. Such a delicate little soul :)

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Nina
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Nina » 02 Feb 2022, 19:03

Hi Laura,
I'm so sorry to come in late on your thread (for some reason I wasn't notified about your first post) -- and I see that you've also posted a plant for ID on the forum and I wasn't notified about that either (will get to that a.s.a.p.).

First of all, welcome to The Tortoise Table, and congratulations on your little Leopard tortoise! They are a beautiful species, with slightly different needs than the Mediterranean tortoises that are more commonly kept (they don't hibernate and their diet is different). Here's a link to a care sheet for Leopards if you don't have one already: https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 202016.pdf

It's really good news that he is feeding well, and as you will see from the care sheet,the majority of a Leopard's diet (at least 70% and hopefully more) should be composed of various grasses and hays, and the rest can be the weeds, flowers, etc. that are recommended for other species. So it is really good that you are offering him grass and he has hay, but It can be difficult to get little ones used to eating enough grass -- especially dried grass, which you are most likely to be feeding at this time of year. If you cut it up into tiny pieces and sprinkle it on the wet leaves, etc. that he is already eating, so that the grass/hay sticks to the leaves, he will get used to it and you can gradually increase the amount. You can buy good dried grass products called Readigrass and Graze-on from pet shops or online (Readigrass smells lovely!).

It sounds like you've made him a nice home, and it's great that you have him in a tortoise table (the bigger the table the better, as tortoises can get bored quite quickly).

Temperature is super important, and one of the reasons he might not be basking is that it might be a bit too hot under that lamp. Where are you measuring the temperature? If it is a thermometer mounted on a nearby wall, then it won't be an accurate reading of the temperature under the light, so you need to measure it directly under the lamp and at the height of his shell. 35C is a bit too warm, and I would aim for 30C or 32C (and if your thermometer is on a nearby wall then it could well be much warmer than 35C under the lamp). The temperature at your cooler ends is perfect.

That is great that he has water available at all times, but you will also need to bathe him every day or two, in a container that he can't see out of (like and old washing up bowl), in warm water that comes just up to where his top shell meets the bottom shell, for 15 or 20 minutes. Tortoises often don't drink from their water bowls but can dehydrate really quickly under lights, so bathing is essential. Are his eyes a little bit sunken in when they are closed? This could indicate dehydration, and if that is the case then I would up the baths.

As TortyPerson said, he is probably still settling in, and very young tortoises do sleep a lot, so I think he will be fine, and it sounds to me like you've made him a lovely home! If you want to post a photo of his set-up, we might be able to suggest a few tweaks (and of course we never get tired of looking at photos of tortoises, and baby Leopards are particularly cute!).

Nina

Laura0310
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Laura0310 » 03 Feb 2022, 15:15

Hi Nina and thank you so much for responding. We use heat probes to measure the temp just slightly off centre to allow for the shell height thing and today he has actually started basking. I will raise the lamp up slightly and aim for the temps you advise.

He is eating again but thank you for the tips about Readigrass and Graze-On which I will get some of so he can perhaps have something a little softer to eat than the hay currently. I will give loads more grass than previously as was concentrating on him having weeds but now I know the correct ratio he will get loads. Don't mind if it gets wasted just want him to scoff.

He has amazingly taken himself off today into his water bath for a short soak. I bathed him Wednesday and will do so again tomorrow. I did notice that although his eyes don't appear sunken they appear a little small, pardon the pun for such a small tort. I will get around to posting a set up pic but have included a small pic of my little friend. Will look through the care sheet asap.

Feeling much better now his is having his tortoise zoomies around. His table is quite small for now so will give him some more time to get used to me clucking over him. Might also change his substrate to a top soil mix as the one he is on is meant for him but seems quite dry to me even when sprayed.

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Nina
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Nina » 03 Feb 2022, 16:23

Hi Laura,

He is absolutely gorgeous! And I'm so glad he is taking to his water bowl and eating and basking well. I think he must be one happy little tortoise. What's his name, by the way?

I meant to add before, that in addition to his cuttlefish, he will need a good calcium supplement, like Nutrobal, to sprinkle over his food (and if you wet the food then the powder will stick to it). If you think about it, they are mainly bone and shell, so they need an awful lot of calcium to support that. In the wild, they tend to live in areas where the soil and water is calcium rich, but in captivity we need to supply extra for them.

I do think he is a very handsome little Leopard! Lol, and I hope you're prepared for his adulthood when he will weigh up to 30 lbs -- they are the fourth largest species of tortoise in the world, but really rewarding to keep.

Nina

Laura0310
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Laura0310 » 04 Feb 2022, 11:39

Hi Nina and thank you. Currently he has multiple names as we cannot decide on one and obviously don't know the sex and won't for years. Torty Tort seems to be sticking at the moment. As I am well into my 50's he is going to be handed on to my daughter who is a Zoologist specialising in Herpetology, when I leave this earth :) That way I know he will be in safe hands! I do give him the calcium on alternate days and am now picking clumps of fresh grass everyday for him alongside a few weeds. And today is bath day, love the way he comes out all plumped up and fresh bless him. Thank you so much for all your advice :)

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Nina
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Nina » 04 Feb 2022, 11:59

Hi Laura,

I think that Torty Tort (you could call him TT for short), is very lucky to have found a home with you and your family! We always tell people when they acquire a tortoise that it has implications for their will, so it's good to know that you have everything in hand (and how wonderful to have a daughter who is a herpetologist!).

After we get through this winter and cold spring period, it will be a joy to see TT out grazing on the grass and enjoying himself outdoors, and long may the sun shine down on him (or her) and you.

Nina

Laura0310
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Laura0310 » 06 Feb 2022, 14:53

Hi Nina, can I just ask which version of Readigrass you were talking about as there seems to be a few online and not sure which one to pick? Timothy grass is there as is one in a white bag and one in a black which rabbits on them. I used to feed this to my Guinea pigs but got a massive bag which TT would not need 😊

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Nina
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Nina » 06 Feb 2022, 16:29

Oh dear, I'm not an expert in this, as I've only bought Readigrass once or twice in the past. I thought that there was only one version -- Readigrass is the brand name -- and it's made of dry, British grown grasses, and the manufacturers say that if kept dry it will store almost indefinitely (so you wouldn't need to worry about buying a big bag).
Are you sure you were looking at Readigrass and not another brand of dried grass/hay? I've just looked it up, and the manufacturers only say that it is made from grass, so I'm not sure what the Timothy grass version is.
Here's a link to the manufacturer's website: https://www.friendshipestates.co.uk/horses/readigrass but I know you can buy Readigrass from Pets at Home (£4.79 for 1 kg), and other places (if you Google Readigrass you can see lots of places), and it's available in smaller bags too. This place is charging £3.75 for a 1kg bag https://www.petshop.co.uk/Friendly-Read ... quantity=1

I might be wrong, so if there are various versions of Readigrass, let me know and I'll do some more research.

Nina

Laura0310
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Laura0310 » 06 Feb 2022, 20:35

Hi Nina that's great thanks. I recognise one of the bags so will go with that. Like I mentioned I used to feed it to our Guinea pigs and do see it up at our horse feed supplier, but will follow your first link I think as I have seen that brand. Thank you so much for your help as always 😊

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Nina
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Nina » 06 Feb 2022, 22:52

Hi Laura,
That first link was to the manufacturer's website, and from there I think I could only see it available in huge quantities for horses, but the second one was a small bag. They were both Readigrass, and if you google Readigrass you will see lots of places that sell it in small bags. If it's called Readigrass then it is the same stuff no matter where you get it from, as that is their brand name. Good luck, and let us know if he takes to it!

Nina

Laura0310
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Laura0310 » 08 Feb 2022, 09:25

Hi Nina, have ordered two small bags and will let you know how he gets on with it.

However he had just had a poo and I am not sure if it is right or not. Picture of poo as close as I could get and his eyes which I think for hydration are ok. He is bathed every other day and his food is fed soaked with spray and he bathes himself so not sure dehydration would factor too much with him. Could you advise if you think something is amiss?
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Nina
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Nina » 08 Feb 2022, 12:41

Hi Laura and thanks for the photo. He really is a beautifully marked Leopard!

With the husbandry you are giving, I don't think you need to worry at all about dehydration, and his eyes look fine to me.

Regarding the poo, my colleague Lin and I have looked at the photo, and the poo definitely isn't right, but the photo itself is a bit confusing because there seems to be other things in it, and we can't tell exactly what is poo and what is other things. For example, there seems to be some sort of yellow flower there, and maybe bits of substrate or something else (looks a bit like riny cauliflower florettes on the poo). Is the poo itself just the green, sort of slimy bit that you can see? It looks a bit like a partly digested leaf or something. If you still have it, could you remove everything that isn't poo and then take another photo?

A tortoise poo ideally should be brown or greenish brown (depending on what they have been eating), firm, fairly dry and sort of bullet shaped. Here are some links to images:
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-phot ... 1021451017
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-phot ... -633668675

Nina

Laura0310
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Laura0310 » 08 Feb 2022, 13:10

Hi Nina, it is only the green shiny stuff that came out of him, everything else got stuck to it as I moved the bits about to get the shot. It was a very small sample so sadly not this best example of my skills. Sadly it's almost dried out now and nothing left to show.
I was wondering if it was the change in diet which could be affecting his digestion or perhaps a worm problem. Last time he had a poo it was in his bath and was a little more formed but then split apart in the water. I was also unsure if he had had a wee at the same time and that's what made it wet in appearance.
He has been getting grass everyday with sow thistle or lambs lettuce or shining geranium, calcium powder and obviously water spray.
Not sure what to think really as he seems quite active with periods of rest through the day and has started to bask as well.

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Nina
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Nina » 08 Feb 2022, 14:51

Thanks for clarifyng, Laura.

The poo was probably from something he ate a week or two ago (tortoise digestive systems are slow). As you bought him on 23 January, it could well be from something he ate before you got him. It sounds to me like his diet now is fine (just not a high enough percentge of grass yet, but you're working on that). He shouldn't be pooing something green and shiny, although that could have just been part of an undigested leaf.

As he is active and doesn't seem to have any other problems, just keep an eye on him and observe (and take photos) of his poos over the next week or so. There is a slight chance that he could have a parasitic infection in his gut, but I wouldn't be overly concerned about that now, although if these sorts of poos continue, then you might have to contact an exotics vet. As you've kept reptiles before, you might already have a good exotics vet, but if not, let me know).

Nina

Laura0310
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Laura0310 » 08 Feb 2022, 15:41

Hi Nina and as always thank you for your reassuring advice, Certainly is a steep learning curve with these tiny people. The Readigrass has arrived and I have put a mound of it in his home so hopefully that will add some additional fibre to his diet.

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Nina
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Nina » 08 Feb 2022, 16:17

Laura0310 wrote:
> Hi Nina and as always thank you for your reassuring advice, Certainly is a
> steep learning curve with these tiny people. The Readigrass has arrived and
> I have put a mound of it in his home so hopefully that will add some
> additional fibre to his diet.

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Nina
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Nina » 08 Feb 2022, 16:21

Hi Laura,

Often with the little ones, dried grasses (which are good for them) is an acquired taste, so keep an eye out and see if he eats it. If not, then it's a good idea to cut a little bit of the Readigrass up into teeny tiny pieces and sprinkle a bit of that on some of the leaves that you have wet, so that the dried grass sticks to the wet leaves. Gradually sprinkle a bit more each day or two until there is a lot of it on his leaves, and then he will develop a taste for it and eat it on its own (fingers crossed!).

Nina

Laura0310
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Laura0310 » 15 Feb 2022, 10:51

Hi Nina, by way of an update Torty has now produced what I think is a better looking poo! Please let me know what you think as I see the colour is better and it is formed. Still he is not keen on dried anything and prefers his wild leaves and cat grass. But hopefully I am getting there with his diet and making improvements very slowly. Think this is about a week on from the green shiny poo which was very confusing.
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Nina
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Nina » 15 Feb 2022, 11:47

Yes, it's definitely getting better, so well done! The shape is much better, but it still looks very soft, so just keep him on a good diet. It's really important that he eventually gets to a diet of over 70% grasses, and dried grass is fine, so do keep encouraging him to eat the ReadiGrass (did you try cutting it up into teeny tiny pieces -- like really tiny -- and sprinkling it on wet leaves that you are feeding him? If he eats that, then you need to keep increasing the amount you sprinkle on, so that he gets used to it and will eat it on his own.

I know it's been stressful, but you're doing a great job and he's a beautiful little tortoise!

Nina

Laura0310
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Laura0310 » 15 Feb 2022, 11:57

Hi Nina, I ground it up in a mortar and pestle to sprinkle over but he turned his nose up at that so am still cutting up little pieces of cat grass for him. Such a fussy little eater but he has put on a gram in weight so all is heading in the right direction I hope.

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Nina
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Nina » 15 Feb 2022, 13:21

They are super fussy and very stubborn, so keep trying, as you're doing a great job!
Mortar and pestle is a very good idea. Just start with a tiny bit, and you can make it into a sandwich (sprinkle the grass on and then fold the leaf over so he can't see it), and try hand feeding at first. Here's a link to our article on switching your tortoise over to a healthier diet : https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... guohJanwqQ

Nina

Laura0310
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Laura0310 » 18 Feb 2022, 14:17

Hi Nina and thank you again for all your advice. The little man is now eating cat grass quite well with my limited range of weeds until I get more familiar with more weed varieties. He still turns his nose up at the ready grass which is frustrating but the good news is this week he has put on another gram in weight so from 4 weeks ago he has gained 2 whole grams. Silly to get so excited but I am so please he appears now to be stuffing his little face with fresh good greens and nothing shop bought. Picture taken today under his heat lamp sleeping through Storm Eunice. He always sleeps with a little leg out :lol:
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Nina
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Re: Worrying about my new baby Leopard

Post by Nina » 27 Feb 2022, 11:20

Hi Laura,

I'm so sorry I missed your last post (our notification system seems to have gone to pot)! What a lovely little tortoise he is, and I'm so glad that he is eating well now. Do keep up the attempts to make the majority (at least 70% and hopefully more) of his diet grass, as that is the best diet for his species, but it sounds like both you and he are doing brilliantly!

Nina

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