Advice needed. Baby Horsefield tortoise!

Use this forum to discuss general questions about any aspects of tortoise care.
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TammyB
Posts: 8
Joined: 21 Aug 2021, 22:34

Advice needed. Baby Horsefield tortoise!

Post by TammyB » 22 Aug 2021, 22:37

Hi Nina,
Thank you for responding to my other post. I didn't see your message and will use your advice about ticking for notifications going forward :)

We brought our baby horsefield home on Saturday. Bought from reptile shop. He's beautiful! 30g at the moment. Certificate suggests he hatched in 2020 but I believe the girl serving us gave us the wrong certificate, but that's not my concern.

My concern is his setup.
He is kept in a tortoise table in the kitchen, which is opened up into the conservatory. The conservatory has a proper tiled roof and blinds so doesn't get boiling hot. Although does get cold in the winter. The reptile shop suggested that we use a T5 Pro 24v desert 24% UV tube and a 100w ceramic heater.
The ceramic heater is set for 30° on a thermostat. She said not to switch it off.

I am measuring temp with the cheap circle thermostat, suggested to us, which I do not trust at all. So also using daughters ear thermometer to measure the ground. Not ideal but ordered a digital fridge thermometer with probe now.

Blue (tortoises name) chooses to sleep in a little hide near the heater but buried into a corner away from its heat. It feels cool to touch inside the hide and the corner temp doesn't pick up on my thermometer so must be under 30°.

I worry that he sleeps near the 30° heat he will still get too hot of a night. I've read that ideally he should get cool. So I've turned the thermostat down this evening.

I've set up another hide in the covered, cool, compartment of the table. He does use it but again tonight is sleeping near the warmth.

I need some advice on how to set this all up correctly. I'm thinking of removing the divide for the seperate compartment.
He doesn't bask under the ceramic heater.
My plan is to move the ceramic heater to the opposite end and set to come on if falls below 20°. Left on all the time.
Then purchase a basking lamp with light to go where the ceramic heater currently is. Set at 30° and on for 12 hours a day. ???
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TammyB
Posts: 8
Joined: 21 Aug 2021, 22:34

Re: Advice needed. Baby Horsefield tortoise!

Post by TammyB » 22 Aug 2021, 22:40

The thermometer isn't in the table here as was just before we we t to get him. Was in the basking spot day before, over night and morning, so we could check and adjust temperature. Also using digital thermometer. Is now near ceramic heater. But will use digital fridge when when arrives.

TammyB
Posts: 8
Joined: 21 Aug 2021, 22:34

Re: Advice needed. Baby Horsefield tortoise!

Post by TammyB » 22 Aug 2021, 22:49

I forgot to click notify when responded! Have done that on this one. And thank you! I just want him (or her!) to be happy and cared for correctly.
In the winter we will move him from kitchen to living room because of the cold. But we don't have our heating on a thermostat so can't regulate house temperature over night. Hence why want to use the ceramic heater.
Plan on moving house in New year and having heater on a thermostat then will be a priority.
I'll attach a picture to here showing where in kitchen he is. Picture taken when setup not complete. No UV tube at time. Xx
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TammyB
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Joined: 21 Aug 2021, 22:34

Re: Advice needed. Baby Horsefield tortoise!

Post by TammyB » 22 Aug 2021, 23:02

Sorry for all these messages! The picture above also shows a combined heat and UV bulb which we still have but were advised to use the ceramic on a thermostat, with UV tube.

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Nina
Posts: 2003
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: Advice needed. Baby Horsefield tortoise!

Post by Nina » 23 Aug 2021, 09:52

Hi Tammy,

Thanks for starting the new thread and congratulations on welcoming Blue into your home. Horsfields are a great species (but I'm a bit biased because I have Horsfields!). Before I answer your questions, you might want to know an interesting fact about this species -- there is no 'e' in the middle of Horsfield, because the species is named after Thomas Horsfield, a 19th Century naturalist and explorer who discovered them.

Anyway, first of all, here is a link to a care sheet for Horsfields: https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf

Regarding your set-up. I'm so glad that you have Blue in a table and not a vivarium, so you're off to a good start, and that table will be perfectly fine for him at this size (although when he gets bigger he will need a bigger area). You've put some nice little 'furniture' in there for him to walk around, and they do love those little bendy log thingys to nestle into and climb on.

The first thing I would change is your substrate. Years ago many people used a substrate like this, but it's not natural for them, and sometime if they eat a bit of it there can be sharp points that can irritate their gut. The other problem is that if a bulb blows, and hot pieces of glass fall down into the table (it's rare, but it has happened) then it can start a fire. Also, it's hard to remove areas where he has had a wee because you can't really see it. In the wild tortoises live on a sandy soil, so the best substrate really is a mixture of ordinary screened/sterilised topsoil and children's play sand, and you can buy bags of these at most garden centres, DIY shops, etc. The recommendation is to mix them 50/50, but many people prefer a slightly higher content of topsoil (so maybe 60/40 or 70/30). It can get a bit dusty, so every day or two you can give it a spray to dampen the top a bit, or every two or three days you can just pour some water on it and mix it in well. What you want is a substrate that is just the teeny tiniest bit damp -- not at all wet. It's easy to spot clean because the wee makes a dark area in the substrate that clumps together and is easily removed with an old spoon or something.

It's great that you've bought a digital thermomenter, because then you can hang the probe down from above so that it is in the circle of light from the heat source and at the height of Blue's shell (measuring a temperature anywhere else won't give you an accurate reading). You are right in aiming for 30C under the heat source and 20C at the cool end, and the hot end should be measured directly under the heat source and at the height of his shell.

I do have one question. When you say you have a 100W ceramic heater -- does it give off light too? Ceramic heaters usually look a bit like a light bulb but made of ceramic material so that they give off heat but not light. However, in the last photo you posted, I think I can see light coming out from the hanging dome shade. If it doesn't give off light then you are right to change it. Your fluorescent UVB tube is absolutely fine, but the light from them isn't very bright, and so you want an ordinary bulb or reptile spotlight that gives off heat and light. We used to recommend 100W household spots, but the bulbs they sell now are all low energy and so don't give off enough heat, so the reptile basking bulb that you suggest sounds perfect.

At this time of year you don't need any heat at all at night (and in fact tortoises like a drop in heat at night), as long as it doesn't go below about 15C or so..

And yes, do remove the lid or the partition from the 'sleeping area'. As you've discovered many tortoises tend to like a tight, snug space to sleep and those areas are too big. You could start with just taking the lid off and he might enjoy having a doorway to walk through to get to his other 'room'. Tortoises tend to get bored if they can see from one end of their table the other without interruption, so having rocks, plants, and barriers to walk around keeps them interested.

Will Blue have an outdoor enclosure that he can go to when it's warm (if you can wear a t-shirt outdoors then he can go out)? The UVB from the sun is a far higher quality than what we provide indoors, and it's good for them to be outdoors and explore. Do monitor him though, as Horsfields are a burrowing species and demon climbers as well, and if they aren't being watched, or if their outdoor enclosure isn't secure they can disappear in no time.

Are you giving him regular baths? With a hatchling like Blue I would recommend baths every other day at least when he is indoors (the heat from lamps is very drying and they can dehydrate quickly). Just in warm water, up to his chin (or where the top shell and bottom shell meet) for 15 minutes or so in a container that he can't see out of (like an old washing up bowl), should be fine, and the added advantage is that they usually wee and poo in the bath, so saves cleaning the table.

Sorry for such a long email, but I think you are giving Blue a really lovely home, and please don't hesitate to ask any more questions or let us know if you have any problems.

Nina

TammyB
Posts: 8
Joined: 21 Aug 2021, 22:34

Re: Advice needed. Baby Horsefield tortoise!

Post by TammyB » 23 Aug 2021, 12:35

Hi Nina,

Thank you <3 Horsfield.
The picture with the light from the bulb is our original set up. UV combined basking light.
Then the reptile shop suggested we had the UV tube instead and have the ceramic heater (no light). I was concerned that it didn't give off a light and will take your advice to change it.
Ive just thought that I don't really want to put the combined one back in because it can be used on a thermostat. I'll have to pick up another bulb.

He will definitely have an enclosed tortoise garden in our next house! We look forward to making it! We don't want to waste money on it at the moment with wanting to move.

Do you have any advice about food? I can't get him to eat anything other than dandelion leaves and flowers! I've offered lambs lettuce and carrot over the the last couple of days. He isn't interested in it. So come afternoon I end up putting in a dandelion and leaves and he munches on them.
I need to go shopping today or tomorrow. Was thinking of trying Tesco Spring Greens. Kale. Cabbage.

I've tried researching weeds to feed him but all alien names. Other than dandelion. We have some bindweed growing behind the house but I'm not sure if it's the 'correct' bindweed.

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Nina
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Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: Advice needed. Baby Horsefield tortoise!

Post by Nina » 23 Aug 2021, 13:10

Hi Tammy,

Thanks for clearing that up. Yes, you want the brightest light possible, so definitely trade that ceramic bulb for one that gives off light.

Regarding diet, tortoises need as wide a variety as possible (it's estimated that in the wild they consume over 200 species), but they can be notoriously fussy. We have a little article on our website on how to introduce a healthier diet: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... SOK8t_TWNI Have a read and have a go. Basically what you do is to cut up their favourite food into pieces and wet them (it's a good idea to wet food anyway, as it gets some water into them). Then cut up a small amount of the new food into very tiny pieces and sprinkle that over the favourite food. Because the pieces are wet they will stick to each other and when Blue goes to bite a piece of dandelion he will also get some of the new stuff. Very gradually increase the amount of new stuff until it is almost a majority of the food and voila! - you've tricked him into eating something new.

It's best not to feed very much of any member of the cabbage family as they contain goitrogens, which in small amounts are OK, but not really great for them, although Kale is by far the best and you can feed that in moderation. Have a look at the heading 'goitrogenic glycosides' on this page of our website for an explanation: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... SOLvd_TWNI

There are loads of weeds about that you can try, in addition to dandelions -- plantain, sowthistle, herb robert, etc. and garden plants like pansies, campanula, and they love evening primrose (not the primroses that bloom in the spring but a different plant), and more. You can look up any plant on the database of our website (just type the name into the search box) to see if it can be fed, and there is a traffic light system of ratings for them. For example here is the entry for Dandelion: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/pla ... SOPWd_TWNI

You can also use the filter system on our website to make lists of plants that you can feed. Scroll down to the heading 'How to Use the Traffic Light Filters' on this page https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/pla ... SOMu9_TWNI and if it isn't clear there I can give you a step-by-step guide.

If you are desperate (for example in the winter when there are fewer plants around), there is a salad mixture called Florette Crispy that you can buy in most supermarkets. Salad (and especially lettuce) in general doesn't have a lot of nutrition and goes through their digestive system too quickly, but this is better than most (although keep it to a minimum).

You could try growing your own tortoise food, and there are several places that offer seeds especially for tortoises. Shelled Warriors has this page, and I would buy the smallest quantity of either the mixture with 10 species, or the luxury mixture with 65 species, and grow them in small trays, sowing one every couple of weeks. When the plants are ready you can put the small tray (A5 size is more than big enough) into his table and let him nibble to his heart's content and then when that is finished the next one will be ready. But if you are growing seeds, don't use a compost with lots of fertilizer. Topsoil (like you will hopefully have in his table) should be fine. https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/pla ... SOMu9_TWNI

If we have a sunny afternoon, and you have a garden, you could try just putting him out to have a bit of a wander, but stay with him because they can disappear if you look away for a short time. Or you can use ordinary log roll that you just put it in a circle on the ground for a temporary enclosure (but again, keep an eye on him as small tortoises can be taken by predators.

Do you have a good calcium + vitamin D3 supplement to give him (like Nutrobal) three or four times a week, and other calcium (like cuttlefish bone, calcium carbonate powder or limestone flour) to give him on days when you don't give the supplement? It's super important that he has calcium added to his diet, in order to produce healthy bone and shell.

Hope that helps and let us know how you get on. And many apologies for such long posts!!

Nina

TammyB
Posts: 8
Joined: 21 Aug 2021, 22:34

Re: Advice needed. Baby Horsefield tortoise!

Post by TammyB » 23 Aug 2021, 19:19

Thank you so much for all of your help and advice Nina.

I'll start wetting his food from tomorrow morning. I'd never thought about it!

We're looking into planting our own food now. Makes sense.

We received a vitamin mix with our tortoise table. The reptile shop looked at it and said was fine. I asked if we needed anything else and was told no. But, I've just checked and clearly says zero vitamin D3. It's called EarthPro-A - 'natural full spectrum of minerals and vitamins.' I was unsure about it's suitability.
I'll have to pick up some calcium and vitamin D3. They definitely sell the calcium at the reptile shop, I know that.

Blue has been out a couple of times already. South facing garden so has sun all day, when there is sun! There's been some warm sunshine on occasions over the last few days. Made most of it :-)

He's gained a lot of confidence compared to day one. Completely and utterly in love with him! :-)
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Nina
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Re: Advice needed. Baby Horsefield tortoise!

Post by Nina » 23 Aug 2021, 22:29

Oh my goodness -- what a gorgeous little tortoise he is! I can see why you and your family have fallen in love with him.

Regarding EarthPro-A. I hadn't heard of it but have looked it up now and it probably isn't bad in small quantities. I was worried that it contained protein powder, because tortoises need a high fibre and low protein diet, but the overall protein content is 8%, which isn't terrible. But I would give it in very small quantities, especially as he is just a little tortoise, and actually the only supplements he needs are calcium and vitamin D3. The best calcium +D3 supplement is Nutrobal, although some tortoises don't like the taste and you have to trick them into eating it (we can give you tips), You only feed a tiny amount (I think the recommended quantity is one pinch per kilo of tortoise), but it's difficult to overdose so a tiny pinch should be fine. On days when you don't give Nutrobal (or whatever calcium+D3 you are using), then sprinkle pure calcium carbonate powder, or limestone flour on the food. When you think about it tortoises are mainly shell and bone, so they need a lot of calcium to maintain that. Here's a link to our guide to Supplements
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... SQOsd_TWNI

I meant to add in the previous email that you have to be very careful about Horsfields growing too quickly and getting deformed shells. In the wild they live in areas where there are long cold winters and long hot summers, and they hibernate for a long time in the winter and aestivate (like hibernation but in the heat) in the summers, and it's estimated that they are only awake for three months of the year! Also, during the summer much of the plant life dries up in the heat, or is eaten by other animals, and there is often a scarcity of food, so they are sort of programmed to 'eat for England' in the limited time they have.

Of course in captivity with us, they are presented with lovely meals every day and can easily grow too quickly and develop bumpy shells and metabolic bone disease, so you need to aim for slow growth, and we recommend an average weight gain of between 1g - 3g per month (it's just an average and some months he will gain more and some less, but it's an average to aim for.

Would you like a complimentary copy of our Tortoise Observation Records booklet to help record his growth? It's a way to keep all your records in one place (vet details, changes of equipment, growth, hibernation, etc.)? If so then just send me your name and address and I'll pop one in the post to you: nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk

So glad he is enjoying the sunshine and being outdoors! He really is such a sweet little tortoise, and you're doing all the right things to give him a good home (and do think about changing that substrate to a topsoil and playsand one -- and make it as deep as possible, so that he can bury himself completely if he wants to).

Oh dear, I was going to make this a shorter post but haven't succeeded!

Nina

TammyB
Posts: 8
Joined: 21 Aug 2021, 22:34

Re: Advice needed. Baby Horsefield tortoise!

Post by TammyB » 23 Aug 2021, 22:46

Hi Nina,

Thank you <3 I will reply via email to you.

Tammy

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