Transitioning new tort

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TortyPerson
Posts: 56
Joined: 15 Aug 2021, 11:06

Transitioning new tort

Post by TortyPerson » 15 Aug 2021, 12:14

Hello all, my first post here. We are new tortoise owners, having ended up with a 7 year old male spur thighed tortoise after he and his brother started fighting all the time in his previous home. I must say that we have now had him 4 weeks and have all fallen in love with this little guy - so much so that we all worry constantly about whether he is happy and healthy.

The reason I am posting is because this tortoise has come from a very humid and warm environment in his previous home, and also he wasn't fed on wild leaves and flowers - instead he had 20% fruit and 80% salad leaves/red pepper and what looked like peas?! I know now from my research that this is not ideal and would like to get him to gently transition to what I understand is a more suitable temperature/humidity and get him eating wild leaves and flowers.

So - the temperature question.... we have him in a 6 x 3ft tortoise table with a sand/earth substrate, and 2 combination lamps for heat and uvb. We started off with one lamp but soon realised the table was too cold except for right under the 125w lamp so that's why we got a second lamp, which is 80w. The table is in 2 sections - the 125w bulb is in a section that's 4ft long and the second section (where he sleeps in a little hut surrounded with rocks and logs) has the 80w bulb. The temperatures are 90- 93 degrees under the 125w bulb and then range from 73 to 76 degrees, depending on where we measure (with laser gun thermometer). We mist the substrate every 2 days.

Now I thiiiiink that these temperatures are ok for your average Mediterranean tortoise but this guy has been used to a much hotter room for the last 6 years. So I'm wondering if we should raise the temperature a bit more with another heat lamp?

I have a spare 100w ceramic lamp that I could set up between the 2 existing lamps. If I do that, there will still be cooler spots available elsewhere in the table.

His activity is fairly random. Some days he will clamber around alot and bask under the hottest lamp on and off for a good 5 hours a day and often tops up under the cooler lamp. Other days he just wants to sleep in his house, which is when we all start fretting! Other info that might relate to his temperature/activity is that he has never been hibernated and we soak him for 30 mins every day because that's what the previous owners did. His weight is 1.789kg and he's 21cm scl. He eats and poops regularly.

As for his diet, how do we get him to eat more wild plants? He will eat dandelion flowers (but not leaves) nasturtium flowers (occasionally eats leaves), thistle flowers, but refuses roses, plantain, clover, nettles and the other safe wild leaves we offer. He loves red pepper, strawberries and grapes (although we hardly ever give him any), grated carrots, and lettuce - this is what he's been eating this for the last 6 years. Refuses kale. He also won't eat unless he's hand fed, but we are letting this go while he settles in, and will work on that in the weeks to come. He has an outside enclosure too for when the weather is dry and warm but we have never seen him eat anything in it, which includes grass, dandelion and plantain.

Thanks for reading this long query - any advice gratefully received.

TP

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Nina
Posts: 2003
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: Transitioning new tort

Post by Nina » 15 Aug 2021, 14:21

Hi TP, and welcome to The Tortoise Table! Many congratulations on rescuing this tortoise from his previous home, and it sounds to me like you have provided him with an excellent home now.

Regarding his previous diet -- you are right in thinking that it was not good at all! Mediterranean tortoises (like yours) really shouldn't have fruit at all. In the wild they would naturally come upon some fallen fruit and eat it, but their digestive systems don't cope well with the natural sugars in fruit, and it can upset their digestive systems. Salad leaves do no harm in small quantities, but they don't contain a lot of nutrition and they are classified as 'wet food', which means they go through the digestive system quickly and the tortoises don't extract much nourishment from what is there. Torts, as I'm sure you've read, need a high fibre/low protein diet, and salad leaves don't have much fibre in them.

Having said all that, tortoises love fruit and salad leaves, because it's a bit like junk food for them (think of feeding a small baby lots of chocolate -- they would love it, and it wouldn't kill them, but it's not good for them). Tortoises are also very stubborn, and as you've found out, it can be difficult to change the diet they are used to. We have an article on our website on exactly this topic -- have a read and see what you think:
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... RkNJt_TWNI
I find the most effective way is to cut everything up into tiny pieces. Start with mostly the old horrible diet and wet all of the leaves, etc. Then cut up a smallquantity of the new diet into tiny pieces and mix that with the old, so that they all stick together. When the tortoise takes a bit of the old diet, some of the new will be sticking to it and he will eat that too. Gradually increase the amount of new stuff and decrease the amount of the old diet, until it's 100% new.

Tortoises love to be hand fed and as you have found out, they then don't want to eat on their own, but it's important that they do because holding the food with their feet and tearing at it is natural behaviour and strengthens their muscles. You could try cold turkey, leaving out his favourite food but refusing to hand feed it. Tortoises are stubborn and can go a long time without food, but they won't starve themselves, and he will give in in time. But maybe don't do everything all at once -- get him on to a better diet first.

Regarding temperature, you need to measure it directly under the light,and at the height of your tortoise's shell (if you are using a temp gun and aiming it at the substrate, then it could be a bit out because it's the air temperature you want to measure (but it doesn't sound bad to me). I would definitely keep it below 93F (34C) as that is a bit too warm. Really about 86F or 87F (30C) is about right for directly under the lamp, and then at the cool end it should be about 70F (21C). In this way he can wander from warm to cool areas in order to thermoregulate. You don't need any heat at night (is that 80W bulb in his sleeping hut?), unless the room temperature drops below about 60F, because in the wild it gets cooler at night, and they quite like a bit of a drop in temperature then.

I would get him outdoors as much as possible in warm weather. He's probably not eating much at first there, because it's a different environment from what he is used to, but the UVB from the sun is of a much higher quality than anything we can provide artificially indoors, and it will also give him more space to roam around and get some exercise.

Are you giving him a good calcium supplement with his food? Calcium carbonate powder can be sprinkled on his food, and you can leave a cuttlefish bone (those things they sell for birds) in his enclosure for him to nibble on, although many tortoises won't eat them until they've been sitting outside in the rain and elements and are beginning to look all green and horrible (ha, ha then they love them).

I do think you are going to be excellent tortoise keepers and have made a super start. If you want to send us a photo of your tortoise table, we can see if any little tweaking would help. Also, if he is going to be indoors a lot, and you table is a good size, then you could consider adding a second level (just a ramp going up to a raised area), as they love to climb up and down and if you feed him on the top level he will always be running up and down it to see if there is any food there for him. And the area under the upper level can double as a sleeping area. I've attached a photo of my table to show you what I mean, but it's just an idea and I'm not suggesting that it is necessary.

Finally, you probably already have a good care sheet, but here's a link to one for Spur Thighs
https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf (it's for Iberas but will apply to all).

Now it's my turn to apologize for such a long post! I hope it didn't bore you and is of some help. Do send photos of the tortoise (what's his name) and his table, as we'd love to see them.

Nina

Nina[attachment=1]m_IMG_9496.jpg[/attachment][attachment=0]m_IMG_9493 [Desktop Resolution].jpg[/attachment]
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TortyPerson
Posts: 56
Joined: 15 Aug 2021, 11:06

Re: Transitioning new tort

Post by TortyPerson » 16 Aug 2021, 11:18

Thank you Nina for your advice and for taking the trouble to explain everything brilliantly. We will put your food advice into practise today and once he has started eating a bit better, then we'll wean him off the handfeeding. We are using a calcium supplement - Exo Terra Calcium & D3 - and we sprinkle a little on his food every day, as per the advice from the previous owner. We didn't get him a cuttlefish bone so we will get one this week and leave it in the garden to turn green if necessary!

Re.the temperature question, the 80w lamp points down to a floor area beside his sleeping hut and we switch all the lamps off at night because the ambient temperature of the room at night is around 65 degrees. I suppose I was wondering if we should keep the table a little warmer than is usually recommended for a Mediterranean tortoise because he is so used to a really, really warm and humid room. If he has a quiet day where he wants to sleep a lot, we wonder if the change in temperature is making him want to hibernate. But generally he's fairly active.

I will add pictures of the little guy and his table shortly! He's called Gonzales.

TortyPerson
Posts: 56
Joined: 15 Aug 2021, 11:06

Re: Transitioning new tort

Post by TortyPerson » 17 Aug 2021, 10:50

[attachment=0]IMG-20210716-WA0002.jpg[/attachment]
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Hello! I have an underbite as you can see.

TortyPerson
Posts: 56
Joined: 15 Aug 2021, 11:06

Re: Transitioning new tort

Post by TortyPerson » 17 Aug 2021, 11:09

This is his table. We're already thinking of extending it under the stairs, as long as we can light it safely. Nina your suggestions of a 2nd tier over his sleeping area sounds great. We will probably do this and move the existing sleeping hut into his garden enclosure. The window boxes are attached securely at the top and bottom and are sealed so they can't leak water. The plants are all old ones we have grown or repurposed so they have not been exposed to pesticides. We repotted them in sterilized topsoil just in case! We have a few different rocks, logs and plants which we switch in and out so he doesn't get too bored. He loves to climb them and just to say we have read that you need to be careful that he doesn't fall off onto his back and get stuck under the lamps so we take out the big log if we are going out! The rest of the time, there is somebody in the same room almost constantly as we work from home.

[attachment=1]20210817_104150.jpg[/attachment]

This is the second area. It has his sleeping hut, logs, stones and a place to dig. The substrate is 10 - 15cm deep.

[attachment=0]20210817_104233.jpg[/attachment]
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Nina
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Re: Transitioning new tort

Post by Nina » 17 Aug 2021, 20:08

Well, I have to say you've done an excellent job with Gonzales's enclosure! Tortoises can get really bored and lethargic if they are in boring surroundings, with nothing to walk over, around, under, etc. and can see from one end of their table to the other with no interruptions. You've got loads of interest in there, and a nice deep substrate for him to dig in too -- so well done and I think he is very lucky to have found a home with you.

He's a very handsome tortoise, but I thought I'd point out that in the photo you enclosed it looks like he has a slight deformity of the jaw. This would be something he was born with (or possibly developed because of a lack of calcium in his early diet), and what I am talking about is the fact that he seems to have a slight 'underbite', where his lower jaw protrudes out further than his beak. This is fairly unusual, although I've seen it before, and seen it much worse. Usually what we see is too much of an overbite, where the upper 'beak' has grown long and hangs down over the jaw and that can prevent them from eating easily. Ideally there should be a very tiny overbite, with the beak just coming down over the lower jaw, but not too far. I don't have many good photos to show you what I mean, but here is one of my Dolly, showing her beak and jaw and maybe you can see how her upper beak comes down to just cover the top of her lower jaw:
[attachment=0]m_IMG_6207.jpg[/attachment]

I've talked to my colleague, Lin, about it, and whether it could result in it being more difficult for him to tear his food and eat. Lin says 'I would say it could possibly interfere. I can see the lower bite would push food away when trying to pick it up. It might have a better chance if food is naturally growing but looking at it closely it is possible that it could be trimmed near the back lower edge allowing the side plate to overlap the bottom jaw.
A specialist vet job would be beneficial in my opinion."

He might be absolutely fine with this and have adjusted to it (tortoises are amazingly adaptable), but I just thought I'd ask if you have a good reptile vet near you, that you could consult. We have a list of recommended vets by area on our website here: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... RwGq9_TWNI if you don't already have one (but I'm not sure whether you live in the UK or not).

It shouldn't really make any difference to his life, and he has managed quite well with it so far, so there probably isn't a need to do anything, but I just thought i'd point it out, in case you think it affects his ability to eat.

Nina
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TortyPerson
Posts: 56
Joined: 15 Aug 2021, 11:06

Re: Transitioning new tort

Post by TortyPerson » 17 Aug 2021, 21:08

Thank you Nina and Lin. Yes we were told by the previous owner that he had arrived with an underbite, and I think he was only young when they got him so whatever the cause was, it is lost to the mists of time. But I must say that he seems to cope with it fine although as you know, we got into a bad handfeeding habit so I rarely spot him eating from his plate. He can certainly can take bites out of the crunchy end of endive and pak choi no problem. I don't know of any specialist reptile vets yet but I will have to locate one anyway for checkups and to trim his beak if needed. Thanks again for all the great advice. This is such a great website for a tortoise beginner like me!

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Nina
Posts: 2003
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: Transitioning new tort

Post by Nina » 17 Aug 2021, 22:09

Hi TP,

I'm really glad that he is doing well, and the jaw thing is almost certainly something he was born with and had learned to cope with.
Were you able to find a vet on our list? I'm still not sure what country you live in. We usually assume to start with that people are in the UK, but we have many members in Europe, the USA, Middle East, etc., and because you gave your temperatures in Fahrenheit I thought maybe you were in North America.

Best wishes,
Nina

TortyPerson
Posts: 56
Joined: 15 Aug 2021, 11:06

Re: Transitioning new tort

Post by TortyPerson » 18 Aug 2021, 08:29

Hi Nina yes thank you for sharing the useful reptile vet list - we will contact the Bray vet :)

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Nina
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Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: Transitioning new tort

Post by Nina » 18 Aug 2021, 08:43

Ahh, you're in Northern Ireland. Bairbre O'Malley at the Bray practice has a really excellent reputation and you'll be in very safe, expert hands there.
Gook luck, and let us know how you get on.

Nina

TortyPerson
Posts: 56
Joined: 15 Aug 2021, 11:06

Re: Transitioning new tort

Post by TortyPerson » 19 Aug 2021, 11:26

Republic of Ireland :) Thanks Nina, I don't know if its because he has finally settled in, or if it's the new wild leaves added to his food as per your method, or if we have finally got his temperature right, but Gonzales has not had a sleepy day for 3 days and instead has been very very busy - exploring, climbing and has even eaten from his plate! Thanks for all the advice.

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Nina
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Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: Transitioning new tort

Post by Nina » 19 Aug 2021, 12:30

Oops, so sorry! Don't know why I said N. Ireland, as I know Bray is in the Republic of Ireland, as I attended a very jolly wedding in Bray, many years ago!

I'm so pleased to hear the Gonzales has turned a corner and is a happy, energetic little tortoise now! Really excellent news!

Nina

TammyB
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Joined: 21 Aug 2021, 22:34

Re: Transitioning new tort

Post by TammyB » 21 Aug 2021, 22:42

I'm sorry to post on this topic. I've just joined and can't find how to ask a question. I desperately would like some advice on my current tortoise table setup. Bought our baby home today, with setup approved by reptile shop. But I have concerns and have read other threads on here, which validate my concern. Where/how can I ask for help please??? X

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Nina
Posts: 2003
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: Transitioning new tort

Post by Nina » 22 Aug 2021, 09:23

Hi Tammy, and welcome to The Tortoise Table!

I know it can be confusing, but you can start a new thread or ask a question by going to the main Forum Page https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/sit ... /index.php, then choosing a category -- for example, General Tortoise Care https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/sit ... m.php?f=12 Right under the heading near the top of the page that says General Tortoise Care you will see a little box that says, in red, New Topic. Just click on that to start writing your question.

If that is confusing, or doesn't work for you, then just ask your question here, and we will do our best to answer you. And if you tell me what species your tortoise is, we will send you a link to a good care sheet too.

Also, whenever you are writing a post on this forum, underneath the box you are writing in, there are little boxes you can tick, and one of these is 'notify me when a reply is posted'. If you tick that box, then as soon as someone posts a reply to your question you will receive an email telling you that someone has replied, so that you won't miss it.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Nina

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