Hi,
Me again. I’m hoping this will be my last post for a while. My reason for posting here is because I asked a question in a Facebook group last night and got absolutely roasted. I went to bed thinking that I’m going to end up seriously harming Floyd. You guys have never ever made me feel that way, despite having pointed out things I’m not doing quite right, you haven’t judged and you’ve offered workable, helpful solutions. So I’m staying off Facebook and asking here. I was awake a 4am making a list of all the things I’m still not sure about so here goes.
1. Did I make a huge mistake getting Floyd from a reptile shop? Apparently this a cruel and barbaric way to obtain a tortoise (I didn’t realise that breeders could sell, I thought due to the A10 cert they needed to come from a reptile place, that’s a mistake I can’t change?
2. Is his table not good enough? Again, last night I was told it was awful. I’ll attach a new picture.
3. I’ve been moving him from where he falls asleep (normally next to or in the plant pot) to the dark sleeping area. As I’ve posted before this has a mat giving a gentle heat from behind a glass, the glass doesn’t get warm. My lounge drops to about 15-18 at night. I can’t get an accurate temp in the sleeping area yet as my digital thermometer hasn’t arrived but the one on the wall of the table goes below 20 at night. Should I be moving him or leave him? Surely the open area is too cold?
3. Substrate. I’ve currently got tortoise life in there. And I know this is not good enough. Hubby has taken some convincing that topsoil is better and we are getting some but last night the replies I got made me think that I’m going to A. Make Floyd blind and B. Cause him to get impacted with substrate. (hubby was of the mindset that as the substrate is called tortoise life it must be the best thing!!!)
4. Table size? What is the right size for Floyd? Last night I was told my table is too small and will cause Floyd to become unhappy and shorten his lifespan.
5. Insurance? Do I need it? Should I have it?
6. Vet check? Should I get him a vet check. I’ve googled and there is a recommended vet (from the tortoise protection website and on here!)
7. Calcium? He’s got a calcium block but should I get the powder as well? If so which one? The reptile guy said I wouldn’t need it (but I’m beginning to regret using a reptile guy so...)
8. UVB. I’ve currently got a combi bulb set up. We do need to adjust the clamp lamp cause it’s definitely not in the right place and hubby is going to build a stand to clip it to so I can adjust it but last night I was told to get a tube uvb light instead?
I think that’s everything and I’m sorry it is so so long but I trust the advice from here and you don’t judge when I get something wrong, you just help and offer workable solutions.
Hubby has been out of work and used his savings to get Floyd and the set up for my 40th so whilst we can change something’s immediately we won’t be able to sort a complete new table and heat/uvb up for a few weeks (hubby goes back to work this week!).
Please don’t feel you need to answer if it’s too much.
Much love
C x
My questions.
-
beeclaire80
- Posts: 80
- Joined: 22 Sep 2020, 17:10
Re: My questions.
Hi Claire,
I'm really sorry you were treated so badly on that Facebook page! I remember years ago when I first got Doris, I was on one of the many internet forums that were popular then and asked how often I should bathe her. Someone came back with a scathing comment about how humans are 'bathed' and tortoises are 'soaked', and they said it in a really hurtful way, and I remember bursting into tears because I was so stressed anyway that I might not be looking after her properly. Then two other people from the forum wrote to me privately and apologised for the nasty person's behaviour and they befriended me, and I've never forgot how kind they were. If it makes you feel any better, it isn't just people on tortoise Facebook pages who are nasty. i once commented to a friend about how unkind and backbiting some people on the tortoise forums were (this was before Faacebook pages), and she replied: "You think they are bad on the tortoise forums? You should see how nasty they get on the rabbit forums!" Anyway, we would never be unkind to someone, because we all remember what it was like when we got our first tortoises, and also how much misinformation there is out there. I'd like to know which Facebook group you were on (I have a hunch as to which it might be), and if you don't want to write it down here, could you send it to me in an email at nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk ?
So, to answer your questions:
1. Yes, it is better to buy your tortoise from a breeder, but how were you to know? In your first posting you said that you got him from a reputable breeder, but I assume now that this was because you thought the reptile shop had bred him. I got Doris from a reptile shop many years ago, because i didn't even know that there were breeders in the UK. As far as I understand it, breeders do have to supply either a photocopy of the A10 certificate when they are selling the tortoise, or at least provide the A10 number. You don't actually need an A10 to possess a tortoise, as long as you are not going to sell it, but any commercial transaction does require the A10.
2. His table. What in the world is awful about it? It's a perfectly nice table! I think you've come leaps and bounds since you first got Floyd and I don't know what they are criticising. From your latest photo, the sleeping area looks a bit large (tortoises tend to like small cozy areas), and that might be why he is choosing the plant pot, so if you wanted to take the lid off, or cut it down you could, but that would be just to make more space for him, and it is perfectly fine as it is. If he wants to sleep somewhere other than the sleeping area that is just fine. Mine hardly ever go into their sleeping area (which is too big for them but difficult to change now).
3. 15C - 18C is absolutely fine at night. Don't forget that in the wild tortoises usually experience a drop in temperature at night, and in fact they like and expect that. Regarding your heat mat behind the glass. Is that on the wall or ceiling of the table or on the floor? If on the wall or ceiling that is OK (although you probably don't need it with the temperatures you've given), but if on the floor, even under glass, then it should be removed. The glass might not be hot to the touch, but if a tortoise is sitting on it for some time the heat will build up, and tortoises have been burned from sitting on even low wattage heat mats. Also, tortoises prefer their heat to come from above (like the sun), rather than below. I would let him sleep where he chooses and see how it goes.
3(a). Substrate. Tortoise life is perfectly fine. Some people think that because it contains sand that it is not good and can cause compaction, but in the wild tortoises live on a very sandy soil (I can show you photos if you like), and they do not suffer. I used Tortoise Life for a wihle and it was fine, but it is expensive, so I switched to a topsoil and children's playsand mixture. You can mix the two either 50/50, or with a higher percentage of topsoil to playsand (like 60% or a bit more topsoil), but it is absolutely fine and much cheaper.
4. Table size. In one of your previous photos I can see Floyd in his table and it is more than big enough at the moment (if I remember correctly he weighs about 50g, so your table will be fine for him for quite a while. When he gets bigger he will want a bigger table perhaps, but you can do some modifications to your table, like increasing the height of the walls at one end and putting in a ramp to an upper level, so that he can get more exercise walking up and down. Also, if he will have an outdoor enclosure in the summer, that helps too. But for now his table is absolutely fine.
5. Some people do take out pet insurance, but others (and I'm among that group) just put away a set sum every month into a savings account. If you think about it, you are paying out every month for insurance and if your tortoise never has big vet bills you will never use it and the money goes to the insurance company, but if you put it into a little savings account then at least it is there for you to use if he doesn't need it. The only drawback to that is if he were to incur a big vet bill before the money in your account builds up enough (but then hopefully you could supplement it from out of your pocket.
6. Vets. I don't think it's necessary for you to get him checked out by a vet at the moment, as long as he is eating, pooing, walking around, etc. If he seems off colour at all then that would be different. Before you make an appointment though, do ring the vet to make sure that they still have an 'exotics/reptile' specialist. There tends to be only one person in a practice (if any), and vets can come and go, but our records aren't always updated if we aren't informed.
7. Calcium block. I personally don't like them that much as they are very hard and sometimes difficult for a small tortoise to eat (and they don't really lick). I would get two things:
A. A calcium and D3 powder like Nutrobal (or Repti Calcium+D3 is OK too). A pinch of this should be put on his food every other day (and wet his food so that the powder sticks to it).
B. On days when he isn't having the Nutrobal you can sprinkle a calcium powder (you can get food grade calcium carbonate powder on the internet, or you can buy limestone flour at places like horsefeed suppliers, etc.). Sprinkle this liberally. In addition you can put a cuttlefish bone (the things they put in budgie cages) into his table for him to nibble at will. Some tortoises won't eat the cuttlefish bone until it's been sitting outside in the rain and elements for a month or so and is beginning to look horrible -- then they devour it. But he does need extra calcium and D3 (the D3 enables him to utilise the calcium in his diet), to support all that growing shell and bone -- when you think about it they are mainly shell and bone!
8. The combi mercury vapour heat/light/uvb bulbs are absolutely fine! The quality of UVB they produce is excellent and there is no problem with them. You do have to hang them vertically though, as if they are at an angle they can sometimes blow out. Do ensure that you are able to raise and lower it to increase or decrease the temperatue in the table though. The advantage of the fluorescent tubes is that if you have to raise the heat bulb to lower the temperature in the table you aren't also increasing the distance of the UVB source from the table, but this is a minor point. I use the fluorescent tubes, but the disadvantage is that you have more sets of wires running everywhere. I would just stick with your bulb -- it's fine. With all UVB bulbs, do ensure that you don't look directly into the light, as it can damage your eyes.
Finally, what a nice hubby you have - to have got Floyd for your big birthday present, and thanks so much for the photos! I think Floyd has been very lucky to have found a home with you and he is going to grow up to be one happy and healthy tortoise! Apologies for my long answer (lol, you are probably nodding off now).
Warmest wishes,
Nina
I'm really sorry you were treated so badly on that Facebook page! I remember years ago when I first got Doris, I was on one of the many internet forums that were popular then and asked how often I should bathe her. Someone came back with a scathing comment about how humans are 'bathed' and tortoises are 'soaked', and they said it in a really hurtful way, and I remember bursting into tears because I was so stressed anyway that I might not be looking after her properly. Then two other people from the forum wrote to me privately and apologised for the nasty person's behaviour and they befriended me, and I've never forgot how kind they were. If it makes you feel any better, it isn't just people on tortoise Facebook pages who are nasty. i once commented to a friend about how unkind and backbiting some people on the tortoise forums were (this was before Faacebook pages), and she replied: "You think they are bad on the tortoise forums? You should see how nasty they get on the rabbit forums!" Anyway, we would never be unkind to someone, because we all remember what it was like when we got our first tortoises, and also how much misinformation there is out there. I'd like to know which Facebook group you were on (I have a hunch as to which it might be), and if you don't want to write it down here, could you send it to me in an email at nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk ?
So, to answer your questions:
1. Yes, it is better to buy your tortoise from a breeder, but how were you to know? In your first posting you said that you got him from a reputable breeder, but I assume now that this was because you thought the reptile shop had bred him. I got Doris from a reptile shop many years ago, because i didn't even know that there were breeders in the UK. As far as I understand it, breeders do have to supply either a photocopy of the A10 certificate when they are selling the tortoise, or at least provide the A10 number. You don't actually need an A10 to possess a tortoise, as long as you are not going to sell it, but any commercial transaction does require the A10.
2. His table. What in the world is awful about it? It's a perfectly nice table! I think you've come leaps and bounds since you first got Floyd and I don't know what they are criticising. From your latest photo, the sleeping area looks a bit large (tortoises tend to like small cozy areas), and that might be why he is choosing the plant pot, so if you wanted to take the lid off, or cut it down you could, but that would be just to make more space for him, and it is perfectly fine as it is. If he wants to sleep somewhere other than the sleeping area that is just fine. Mine hardly ever go into their sleeping area (which is too big for them but difficult to change now).
3. 15C - 18C is absolutely fine at night. Don't forget that in the wild tortoises usually experience a drop in temperature at night, and in fact they like and expect that. Regarding your heat mat behind the glass. Is that on the wall or ceiling of the table or on the floor? If on the wall or ceiling that is OK (although you probably don't need it with the temperatures you've given), but if on the floor, even under glass, then it should be removed. The glass might not be hot to the touch, but if a tortoise is sitting on it for some time the heat will build up, and tortoises have been burned from sitting on even low wattage heat mats. Also, tortoises prefer their heat to come from above (like the sun), rather than below. I would let him sleep where he chooses and see how it goes.
3(a). Substrate. Tortoise life is perfectly fine. Some people think that because it contains sand that it is not good and can cause compaction, but in the wild tortoises live on a very sandy soil (I can show you photos if you like), and they do not suffer. I used Tortoise Life for a wihle and it was fine, but it is expensive, so I switched to a topsoil and children's playsand mixture. You can mix the two either 50/50, or with a higher percentage of topsoil to playsand (like 60% or a bit more topsoil), but it is absolutely fine and much cheaper.
4. Table size. In one of your previous photos I can see Floyd in his table and it is more than big enough at the moment (if I remember correctly he weighs about 50g, so your table will be fine for him for quite a while. When he gets bigger he will want a bigger table perhaps, but you can do some modifications to your table, like increasing the height of the walls at one end and putting in a ramp to an upper level, so that he can get more exercise walking up and down. Also, if he will have an outdoor enclosure in the summer, that helps too. But for now his table is absolutely fine.
5. Some people do take out pet insurance, but others (and I'm among that group) just put away a set sum every month into a savings account. If you think about it, you are paying out every month for insurance and if your tortoise never has big vet bills you will never use it and the money goes to the insurance company, but if you put it into a little savings account then at least it is there for you to use if he doesn't need it. The only drawback to that is if he were to incur a big vet bill before the money in your account builds up enough (but then hopefully you could supplement it from out of your pocket.
6. Vets. I don't think it's necessary for you to get him checked out by a vet at the moment, as long as he is eating, pooing, walking around, etc. If he seems off colour at all then that would be different. Before you make an appointment though, do ring the vet to make sure that they still have an 'exotics/reptile' specialist. There tends to be only one person in a practice (if any), and vets can come and go, but our records aren't always updated if we aren't informed.
7. Calcium block. I personally don't like them that much as they are very hard and sometimes difficult for a small tortoise to eat (and they don't really lick). I would get two things:
A. A calcium and D3 powder like Nutrobal (or Repti Calcium+D3 is OK too). A pinch of this should be put on his food every other day (and wet his food so that the powder sticks to it).
B. On days when he isn't having the Nutrobal you can sprinkle a calcium powder (you can get food grade calcium carbonate powder on the internet, or you can buy limestone flour at places like horsefeed suppliers, etc.). Sprinkle this liberally. In addition you can put a cuttlefish bone (the things they put in budgie cages) into his table for him to nibble at will. Some tortoises won't eat the cuttlefish bone until it's been sitting outside in the rain and elements for a month or so and is beginning to look horrible -- then they devour it. But he does need extra calcium and D3 (the D3 enables him to utilise the calcium in his diet), to support all that growing shell and bone -- when you think about it they are mainly shell and bone!
8. The combi mercury vapour heat/light/uvb bulbs are absolutely fine! The quality of UVB they produce is excellent and there is no problem with them. You do have to hang them vertically though, as if they are at an angle they can sometimes blow out. Do ensure that you are able to raise and lower it to increase or decrease the temperatue in the table though. The advantage of the fluorescent tubes is that if you have to raise the heat bulb to lower the temperature in the table you aren't also increasing the distance of the UVB source from the table, but this is a minor point. I use the fluorescent tubes, but the disadvantage is that you have more sets of wires running everywhere. I would just stick with your bulb -- it's fine. With all UVB bulbs, do ensure that you don't look directly into the light, as it can damage your eyes.
Finally, what a nice hubby you have - to have got Floyd for your big birthday present, and thanks so much for the photos! I think Floyd has been very lucky to have found a home with you and he is going to grow up to be one happy and healthy tortoise! Apologies for my long answer (lol, you are probably nodding off now).
Warmest wishes,
Nina
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beeclaire80
- Posts: 80
- Joined: 22 Sep 2020, 17:10
Re: My questions.
Thank you for the reply!
Hi Nina,
Thank you for your reply.
I’m going to print it out and highlight the bits I need to change/buy/do.
Apologies for the birthday photos! I thought I’d selected 2 of Floyd!!!!
I will send you an email re the group. I’ve deleted my post now cause I really couldn’t take any more replies!
Yes, I thought Floyd had been bred with the reptile shop. We did google and get reviews of the shop and the guy who owns it is very well thought of locally in the reptile world (but maybe better for lizards and things, which he does breed himself). Hubby and I have said if we buy another we will get it from
Hi Nina,
Thank you for your reply.
I’m going to print it out and highlight the bits I need to change/buy/do.
Apologies for the birthday photos! I thought I’d selected 2 of Floyd!!!!
I will send you an email re the group. I’ve deleted my post now cause I really couldn’t take any more replies!
Yes, I thought Floyd had been bred with the reptile shop. We did google and get reviews of the shop and the guy who owns it is very well thought of locally in the reptile world (but maybe better for lizards and things, which he does breed himself). Hubby and I have said if we buy another we will get it from
Re: My questions.
I loved the photo of your with your birthday cake! And thanks for the name of the group -- it is the one I thought it mght be.
Cheers,
Nina
Cheers,
Nina
-
beeclaire80
- Posts: 80
- Joined: 22 Sep 2020, 17:10
Re: My questions.
Hi Nina,
Sorry to bother you (again!) but can you tell me if this is the right stuff?
The moss and the Nutrobal.
Thank you.
Sorry to bother you (again!) but can you tell me if this is the right stuff?
The moss and the Nutrobal.
Thank you.
- Attachments
-
Re: My questions.
Hi Claire,
What are you going to use the moss for? You can make a humid hide, but putting the moss on the top of a sleeping area, but with a Mediterranean tortoise i wouldn't use it for bedding, as if it is kept damp it can harbour mould, and in general it isn't essential.
The Nutrobal is absolutely right, although some tortoises don't like the taste of it so you have to trick them into eating it (the dose is just a small pinch).
In addition to Nutrobal you should have another source of calcium to sprinkle liberally on food on the days when he isn't having Nutrobal, plus a cuttlefish bone that just stays in the table so that he can nibble at will.
I don't think a hygrometer is essential, but it's nice to have. Does the thermometer have a Max/Min facility on it? Again, it's not essential, but it is sometimes nice to know how warm and how cool it got since the last time you looked.
Nina
What are you going to use the moss for? You can make a humid hide, but putting the moss on the top of a sleeping area, but with a Mediterranean tortoise i wouldn't use it for bedding, as if it is kept damp it can harbour mould, and in general it isn't essential.
The Nutrobal is absolutely right, although some tortoises don't like the taste of it so you have to trick them into eating it (the dose is just a small pinch).
In addition to Nutrobal you should have another source of calcium to sprinkle liberally on food on the days when he isn't having Nutrobal, plus a cuttlefish bone that just stays in the table so that he can nibble at will.
I don't think a hygrometer is essential, but it's nice to have. Does the thermometer have a Max/Min facility on it? Again, it's not essential, but it is sometimes nice to know how warm and how cool it got since the last time you looked.
Nina
-
beeclaire80
- Posts: 80
- Joined: 22 Sep 2020, 17:10
Re: My questions.
Hi Nina,
The moss was to make a humid hide for him?
He’s got a calcium rock but all he does is climb over it so I’ve been rubbing it on his food every other day? (It kind of flakes off!)
Will check if the thermometer has max/min on it.
The moss was to make a humid hide for him?
He’s got a calcium rock but all he does is climb over it so I’ve been rubbing it on his food every other day? (It kind of flakes off!)
Will check if the thermometer has max/min on it.
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