Hello, I’ve been reading lots on this forum recently, it seems such a welcoming place.
Just over a week ago I adopted a horsefield tortoise.
He has a big outdoor enclosure, and an indoor table at night/during bad weather. My questions are regarding some changes I’ve made (so much conflicting advice!).
1. I changed his substrate from herbifloor to aspen bedding (indoors). Does this seem ok, or do they eat it?
2. I changed from separate uv/basking lamps to a single mvp 100w bulb that I can move up and down, and I have a reptile thermometer. The lid is mesh - does this bulb seem ok?
3. I have noticed his front scute is more raised than the others (see pic). Does this look like pyramiding or just a normal tortoise shell?
4. I see him eat all the time- he has a mixture of kale/watercress/rocket/dandelions/dried flower mix for tortoises (and I sprinkle calcium twice a week). Since he came to me I have only seen 2 poos and a creamy/egg white blob which I think is urates? Is this a normal amount in 10 days?
Thank you so much for reading this far! [attachment=0]2AE0D193-AAEB-407A-BAFC-CC92F76CC3E8.jpeg[/attachment]
Adopted Horsefield questions
Adopted Horsefield questions
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Last edited by Jenson on 06 Aug 2020, 23:47, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Adopted Horsefield questions
Hi Jenson, and welcome to The Tortoise Table! Congratulations on adopting your Horsfield -- they are a great species with lots of personality. Just for information, the species is names after Dr Thomas Horsfield, a 19th Century naturalist, and that is why there is no 'e' in the middle of Horsfield.
It sounds to me like you are setting him up with a good home -- both indoors and outdoors -- and with a few tweaks I think it could be perfect. I'll answer your questions re the numbers you listed:
1. Aspen isn't great as a bedding because it doesn't approximate the sort of substrate they would have in the wild, and if they do eat it, it can cause problems. The best substrate is a sandy soil (which is the sort of surface that they live on naturally). So we recommend mixing together ordinary sterilized topsoil and children's play sand (bags of both can be bought at garden centres or places like Homebase). Most people mix them 50/50, but many also make the percentage of topsoil a little greater than the play sand. The other danger of aspen is that if your bulb blows, and shards of hot glass fall onto the substrate, it's a fire risk.
2. Being able to move the bulb up and down is a definite advantage, so it sounds like you are doing well. I don't know what your thermometer is like, but a thermometer mounted on a wall near the light won't give you an accurate reading (it will read much lower). You need to take the temperature directly below the heat source, at the height of the tortoise's shell. You want to aim for 30C under the lamp and 20C at the cool end. The best type of thermometer for that is one of those digital fridge/freezer thermometers with a digital display unit and then a probe at the end of a long cord. That cord can be hung down so that the probe is close to the circle of light given off by your lamp. I can send you a link to what I mean if I haven't described it well.
3. He does have a bit of pyramiding, but that can be stopped by correct husbandry and it shouldn't get any worse. Horsfield tortoises are very prone to over-eating (and again I can explain why, but it will make this post even longer than it is). When they eat too much, or eat the wrong type of food they grow too quickly and their shells become deformed into pyramiding and potentially metabolic bone disease. So we need to monitor their food intake. You want to aim for a weight gain of, on average, 1g - 3g per month (sometimes this will be more and sometimes less, but that is what to aim for). We publish a tortoise records keeping booklet, and if you'd like a complimentary copy, email me with your address and I'll pop one in the post to you (email nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk). If he is gaining too quicklly you can cut down on the amount you give him, and that will help greatly.
4. 2 poos in ten days seems OK, although sometimes they do poo more often. The white creamy stuff is indeed urates, and the fact that they are creamy indicates that he is well hydrated. If the urates are watery (like egg whites) or creamy (like toothpaste) -- -lol I don't know who comes up with these images but those are the ones that are always used -- that is good, but if they are sandy/gritty/hard then he is dehydrated. You can also wet his food and that helps to get water into him too (and it also helps the calcium to stick to the leaves and not get wasted). What sort of calcium are you giving him? Calcium with Vitamin D3 is good (something like Nutrabol or similar products).
I hope that helps and if you email me I can also send you a link to a good care sheet for Horsfields. I think you are going to be a great keeper, and you're asking all the right questions!
Nina
It sounds to me like you are setting him up with a good home -- both indoors and outdoors -- and with a few tweaks I think it could be perfect. I'll answer your questions re the numbers you listed:
1. Aspen isn't great as a bedding because it doesn't approximate the sort of substrate they would have in the wild, and if they do eat it, it can cause problems. The best substrate is a sandy soil (which is the sort of surface that they live on naturally). So we recommend mixing together ordinary sterilized topsoil and children's play sand (bags of both can be bought at garden centres or places like Homebase). Most people mix them 50/50, but many also make the percentage of topsoil a little greater than the play sand. The other danger of aspen is that if your bulb blows, and shards of hot glass fall onto the substrate, it's a fire risk.
2. Being able to move the bulb up and down is a definite advantage, so it sounds like you are doing well. I don't know what your thermometer is like, but a thermometer mounted on a wall near the light won't give you an accurate reading (it will read much lower). You need to take the temperature directly below the heat source, at the height of the tortoise's shell. You want to aim for 30C under the lamp and 20C at the cool end. The best type of thermometer for that is one of those digital fridge/freezer thermometers with a digital display unit and then a probe at the end of a long cord. That cord can be hung down so that the probe is close to the circle of light given off by your lamp. I can send you a link to what I mean if I haven't described it well.
3. He does have a bit of pyramiding, but that can be stopped by correct husbandry and it shouldn't get any worse. Horsfield tortoises are very prone to over-eating (and again I can explain why, but it will make this post even longer than it is). When they eat too much, or eat the wrong type of food they grow too quickly and their shells become deformed into pyramiding and potentially metabolic bone disease. So we need to monitor their food intake. You want to aim for a weight gain of, on average, 1g - 3g per month (sometimes this will be more and sometimes less, but that is what to aim for). We publish a tortoise records keeping booklet, and if you'd like a complimentary copy, email me with your address and I'll pop one in the post to you (email nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk). If he is gaining too quicklly you can cut down on the amount you give him, and that will help greatly.
4. 2 poos in ten days seems OK, although sometimes they do poo more often. The white creamy stuff is indeed urates, and the fact that they are creamy indicates that he is well hydrated. If the urates are watery (like egg whites) or creamy (like toothpaste) -- -lol I don't know who comes up with these images but those are the ones that are always used -- that is good, but if they are sandy/gritty/hard then he is dehydrated. You can also wet his food and that helps to get water into him too (and it also helps the calcium to stick to the leaves and not get wasted). What sort of calcium are you giving him? Calcium with Vitamin D3 is good (something like Nutrabol or similar products).
I hope that helps and if you email me I can also send you a link to a good care sheet for Horsfields. I think you are going to be a great keeper, and you're asking all the right questions!
Nina
Re: Adopted Horsefield questions
Hello Nina,
Thank you so much for your encouraging and very useful reply, it really means a lot to be able to ask questions like this.
The substrate I will change asap - please don’t laugh, I was worried about him getting gritty bits in his eyes, even though I know that’s how they live naturally! Do people line their wooden tables for this?
The thermometer isn’t digital, I do hold it at shell-level in different parts of the table, it is registering different readings at each end, so I hope it’s accurate. I’ve added a pic to see what you think. I’ll email you about the booklet, thanks for that kind offer. Do they put on weight throughout their lives, or is there a rough age when they stop?
Very pleased he’s not dehydrated, will continue bathing etc in the way we have, and adding wet leaves is a great tip. I’ll check the calcium and buy a new one if needed.
Thanks again, appreciate the advice[attachment=0]8B75FC01-EFEB-4DDF-9F44-AAC97DD8B54E.jpeg[/attachment]
p.s. Thanks for the heads up about ‘Horsfield!’
Thank you so much for your encouraging and very useful reply, it really means a lot to be able to ask questions like this.
The substrate I will change asap - please don’t laugh, I was worried about him getting gritty bits in his eyes, even though I know that’s how they live naturally! Do people line their wooden tables for this?
The thermometer isn’t digital, I do hold it at shell-level in different parts of the table, it is registering different readings at each end, so I hope it’s accurate. I’ve added a pic to see what you think. I’ll email you about the booklet, thanks for that kind offer. Do they put on weight throughout their lives, or is there a rough age when they stop?
Very pleased he’s not dehydrated, will continue bathing etc in the way we have, and adding wet leaves is a great tip. I’ll check the calcium and buy a new one if needed.
Thanks again, appreciate the advice[attachment=0]8B75FC01-EFEB-4DDF-9F44-AAC97DD8B54E.jpeg[/attachment]
p.s. Thanks for the heads up about ‘Horsfield!’
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Last edited by Jenson on 06 Aug 2020, 23:48, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Adopted Horsefield questions
Hi and so sorry to be late in responding to your post!
Regarding lining the table -- most people line the table no matter what substrate they are using, because wee and spilled water can make the wood a bit damp, and also it's easier for cleaning. It's not absolutely necessary (especially if your wood has been treated), but people use material like the soft plastic pool liner, or someone mentioned recently that they had used a good quality shower curtain. And you cover up the walls to the point where the substrate reaches.
Yeah, that thermometer is OK, but it's not ideal to have to hold it under the lamp, etc. all the time (plus the temperature of your hand can affect the reading). I use one of those digital fridge freezer thermometers, with a digital display unit that can sit outside the table and then a probe on the end of a long cord that can hang down into the table next to the light. And many of them have a max/min function so that you can see how hot or how cool it got since you last looked and that is very useful, because the temperature in the table changes a lot depending on the temperature in the rest of the room, and some have an alarm feature as well. Something like this (but you can get them in lots of places and for cheaper too): https://www.brannan.co.uk/digital-fridge-thermometer
I think you're doing a great job, and please don't hesitate to contact us if you have any questions or problems.
Cheers,
Nina
Regarding lining the table -- most people line the table no matter what substrate they are using, because wee and spilled water can make the wood a bit damp, and also it's easier for cleaning. It's not absolutely necessary (especially if your wood has been treated), but people use material like the soft plastic pool liner, or someone mentioned recently that they had used a good quality shower curtain. And you cover up the walls to the point where the substrate reaches.
Yeah, that thermometer is OK, but it's not ideal to have to hold it under the lamp, etc. all the time (plus the temperature of your hand can affect the reading). I use one of those digital fridge freezer thermometers, with a digital display unit that can sit outside the table and then a probe on the end of a long cord that can hang down into the table next to the light. And many of them have a max/min function so that you can see how hot or how cool it got since you last looked and that is very useful, because the temperature in the table changes a lot depending on the temperature in the rest of the room, and some have an alarm feature as well. Something like this (but you can get them in lots of places and for cheaper too): https://www.brannan.co.uk/digital-fridge-thermometer
I think you're doing a great job, and please don't hesitate to contact us if you have any questions or problems.
Cheers,
Nina
Re: Adopted Horsefield questions
Hi Nina,
Thank you so much for sending the observation booklet - it’s going be a great help in keeping an eye on things.
Thank you so much for sending the observation booklet - it’s going be a great help in keeping an eye on things.
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