Is my Horsefield sick ?

[SamS]

Hi All

I have an 8 month old Horsefield which i bought in Jan 24 and which up to last week was in a tortoise table in my house. He has been pretty active and eating well in there since I got him.

Last Friday and Saturday when the weather was good I put him in his outdoor enclosure. On the Sunday it rained so he was back inside. The issue is, for the last 4 days he has not eaten at all. He just lies by his log (just out of the basking area). He doesn't move around at all, just lies there with his head and legs stretched out. Personally I think he may be sick. I have spoken to the breeder who said it's quite normal, and other tortoise owners have said it's nothing to worry about. When I put him outside today, he actually moved and went straight to his hide and lay there.

I have tried to tempt him with a bit of cucumber but nothing, he show's no interest. I have been bathing him the last couple of days as I don't want him to get dehydrated. I also bathed him today with some Reptoboost, then offered him food but still nothing. I am very worried about him, and just wondered if anyone has any ideas on what might be wrong ?

His outside enclosure has tortoise soil, some large stones/slate, a water bowl and driftwood logs.
His indoor enclosure is pretty similar but has the Komodo Straw Terrain instead of soil. Temperatures are good also.
He normally eats, kale, sow thistle
I am at a loss as to what may be wrong with him, and am currently now looking for a local vet that deals with exotics.

thank you for reading.

[Nina]

Hi SamS, and welcome to The Tortoise Table.

I'm not sure what has caused your tortoise's lethargy and lack of appetite, but as far as I can see you are doing everything right. Tortoises can go a long time without eating, but they can dehydrate very quickly under lights indoors, so bathing him frequently, and bathing him in Reptoboost is definitely the right thing to do.

Can you check what temperature it is directly under your basking light and at the height of your tortoise's shell and also the temperature at the cool end of the table? Because we've had warmer weather since last weekend, if you haven't raised your heat/light lamp to lower the temperature a bit, it might be a little too warm for him under it. That doesn't explain his lack of appetite though.

Was he active and exploring when he was outside? Could he have eaten anything when he was outdoors that might have made him feel a bit unwell?

Has he been eating a lot of Kale recently? I just ask because we recommend that Kale be fed in moderation because it contains goitrogens and too much of that isn't good (here is our entry for Kale) https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/pla ... nt=529&c=8 Again, that was just a comment and I don't think it has caused this problem.

Also, and again this almost certainly is not the cause of his problems, but I just wondered why you don't use a soil substrate indoors. Those straw pellets can go a bit mouldy if the get wet from the water dish and wee, and they aren't a natural surface for a tortoise to walk on. Please don't take this as a criticism of your set-up as it sounds like you are providing him with a good home and good husbandry, it's just a suggestion.

I think I would continue to bathe him and offer him tempting food. Are there any dandelions around, or sowthistle flowers (they quite like those). The cucumber was a very good idea, and they usually can't resist that, so try it again, and try squeezing some cucumber juice on some leaves.

Usually temperature is the cause of a change in behaviour, so if you could measure the temperature (it must be directly under the lamp and not from a thermometer mounted on a nearby wall) several times a day to get a picture of the changing temperature in his table throughout the day, that might give us some clues.

If nothing works, then you might have to see a vet, and it's good that you have a local one who deals with exotics. We have a list of recommended vets on our website, and if you find your vet to be good, and he isn't already on our list, we are happy to add him.
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... s-by-area/

Nina

[SamS]

Hi Nina

Thank you so much for your reply. I am afraid that it sounds like the Kale is the issue. I was told to give him this until the weeds started to grow etc. he has it every day. After reading up this may be the issue. His temperature in the table is approx 30degrees over his basking area. It was 34 but since the weather got warmer I have dropped it.

Is there a way to get him better ? Will it need a vet visit to help him ? Can the effects of too much kale be reversed ?

Thanks

[Nina]

Hi SamS,

I'm not sure that it is the Kale. Even if he had had it every day, I think it would take a very long time before you would notice any effects of it, and Kale really is the best of all of the brassica family. So for now, you can maybe eliminate the Kale and substitute other things. Tortoises need a wide variety of plants in their diet, so if you can feed a little bit of lots of different plants then that is the best thing. I think that in the wild it is estimated that they eat upwards of 200 different species of plants, and obviously we can't replicate that in captivity, but we can try our best to provide variety.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Kale at the moment -- and even if it has caused a few problems I don't think that he will suffer any long-term effects. It's a good idea to weigh him every day now so that you can determine whether or not he is losing weight. How much does he weigh?

One thing you could do is to make lists for yourself of plants that are good to feed by using the traffic light filter on our website. Go to this page https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/pla ... -database/ and scroll down to the section called 'How to Use the Traffic Light Filters'. Once you set the filter to show only the green traffic light (or maybe the green and the amber-green lights) then you can go to the differenct sections and see only plants that are good to feed. If the instructions are confusing in any way then let me know and I'll explain how to do it. That will give you a wide selection of plants to feed, which will be good for him.

Your temperature sounds fine, and I wish I could put my finger on what is causing the problem, because I can't really see anything that you are doing wrong. Could you post a photo of your set-up with him in it, in case we can think of just a little tweak that might improve it? He sounds like a lovely little tortoise (what's his name by the way?), and please keep us posted on how he is doing.



Nina

[SamS]

Hi Nina

I have been using the table to identify and find weeds for him, I also have a plant identifier app on my phone. I have quite a few different weeds round my garden and area, dandelion, sow thistle , plantain etc. I am also growing him some nasturtium and lambs lettuce.

Here is Frankie’s table, in one of the pics you can just see him sleeping under his driftwood. Light is off as it’s bedtime. He is also due a clean out tomorrow.

He currently weighs 25g, which to me seems very light. He was only 23g when I got him, the biggest he weighed was 27g so he has lost weight.

When I put him out in the garden today he just walked into the hide and lay there, no exploring

Should I call a vet tomorrow ?

[Nina]

Thanks so much for the photos -- and from what I can see he is a very sweet looking tortoise! As long as you are measuring the temperature directly under the lamp, it looks fine, so no problems there.
23g is light for an 8 month old Horsfield, and he should be gaining some weight.

Give it a few more days trying to tempt him with food that you think he will like, and keep up the baths. Are you offering him the food by hand? Tortoises do tend to love being hand fed. We don't recommend doing it a lot because they like it so much that if hand fed a lot then they can stop trying to eat on their own, but in cases like this then it can be useful.

If he isn't eating by the end of the week then maybe it is time for the vet. If you do visit the vet (and please check that they have 'exotics' qualifications), then try to take a sample of poo with you (although if he isn't eating then he probably isn't pooing), so that the vet can check for parasites like worms. You can keep a sample fresh for a day or so in a sealed container in the fridge if necessary.

You've got enough other things to be dealing with now, but for future reference, I think I would definitely change that substrate to a soil/sand mixture (60 or 70% screened topsoil and 30% or 40% children's playsand). In addition to it being a much more natural substrate it is also less of a fire risk. We know of several cases where people used a sort of hay/straw based substrate and the light bulb blew and hot pieces of glass fell down onto the substrate and started a fire. For now though, just concentrate on trying to get him to eat.

Good luck and fingers crossed that you can get him back on track soon!

Nina

[SamS]

I gave him a bath this morning and a bit of poo came out, not much but a little. Not sure if it was watery because he was in water or if he has the runs ?
I have pout some spring greens, hawksbeard and a bit of cucumber into his enclosure and will try to entice him to eat. Will see how it goes.

What substrate do you recommend for his indoor enclosure ?

Is this any good ?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Swell-Reptiles ... hdGY&psc=1

[Nina]

Hi SamS,

That's good news (lol, I'll bet you thought you'd never get excited about some poo, but if there is poo then it means that he ate something!).

You're doing all the right things, and do try offering him some food with your hands -- they love to be hand fed -- and see if he takes that more readily than if it is just put in there for him to eat.

Regarding the Swell Reptiles tortoise soil -- it looks fine, and Swell Reptiles is a good online store, with good prices on most things. So by all means get that, but really it is only a mixture of topsoil and sand, and it's so much cheaper to just buy a big bag of topsoil and another bag of children's play sand from a garden centre or places like Homebase, B&Q etc., and mix them yourself. In the wild tortoises tend to live on a sandy soil substrate so a mixture of the two is perfect for them, and very easy to clean too because you can pick up the poo easily with an old spoon or a sieve, and when they wee it makes a dark wet area of substrate that clumps together and is also easily lifted out with an old spoon.

Many people mix 50% topsoil and 50% children's play sand, but my tortoises prefer a slightly higher soil content, so I mix mine together with about 60% or 70% topsoil and 30% or 40% playsand and that works fine. And make it deep enough so that he can bury himself completely if he wants to (Horsfields are burrowing tortoises and love to bury themselves -- which can be quite alarming when you come in one morning and it looks like they have escaped, only to find they have buried themselves.

The bags of topsoil and sand are a good size and so you'll have them on hand to add more substrate when necessary. With either the Swell Reptile tortoise soil, or your own mixture of topsoil and play sand you will have to give it a light spray every couple of days to keep it from getting dusty. What I do is about twice a week I pour some water directly onto it and mix it in well. What you want to end up with is substrate that is just the teeniest tiniest bit damp and not at all wet. If you put some in your hands and make a fist, it should just about start to clump together.

Good luck for the feeding today!

Nina

[SamS]

I will pop to B&Q this weekend and change his substrate. How long can he go for without eating ? and when should I call a vet if required ?

[Nina]

He could go several weeks without eating, as long as he is well hydrated, but if he is really not eating anything at all, and losing weight by the end of this week then because he is so tiny I think maybe a visit to the vet is in order. You did say that he has had a little nibble of something, so that's encouraging, and I would keep trying. Hold a tempting piece of food with your fingers and offer it to him, just about an inch or two away from him and see if he is interested enough to take a step forward and eat it.

Nina
P.S. Could you email me the name of the vet practice that you said is near you and treats 'exotics' (I'd just like to discretely check them out). Send it to nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk

[SamS]

Hi Nina

I took him to the vet on Saturday. Vet is unsure of what is wrong, and he's too tiny to get bloods etc. He has given me some antibiotics and anti-inflammatory to help. He did note that his eyes were puffy (he keeps rubbing his eyes)
So am going to see how it goes, i am still putting him out in the garden as i think being outside is better for him than just lying in his table.
He has also lost weight, he has gone from 25g now down to 23g. And he is still not eating.
I am also giving him 2 baths a day (with Reptoboost)
If after this course of drugs things do not improve then I don't know what else to do. If he continues to not eat then he will just starve

[Nina]

I'm sorry that he still isn't really eating (although if he had a poo then he must have eaten something).

Usually if eyes are puffy then it's caused by dust getting into them or some other thing and you could try hypromellose eye drops. It's sold in chemists for humans, often under the name 'Artificial Tears', and you just want drops that have only hypromellose in them -- nothing else. Very rarely puffy eyes are caused by a deficiency in vitamin A, but vitamin A injections are not recommended except in extreme cases because it is easy to overdose on it and too much vitamin A produces the same symptoms as a lack of vitamin A.

Can you tell me the name of the antibiotics and the anti-inflammatory? Did the vet say what the antibiotics and the anti-inflammatory were for (I'm just a bit concerned that he has prescribed medicines but without a diagnosis of the problem. Could you email me with the name of the vet practice that you went to -- send it to nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk .

Yes, it is really good to get him outside, and you are right that it will be better for him than just lying in the table, but if he is on antibiotics then ensure that it is warm outside, and indoors it should be warm too, 24/7, just for the time that he is on antibiotics.

Are you offering him food in your hand (it does encourage them if you do that)? Just hold a piece of food like cucumber or a dandelion flower in your hand and keep still and see if he goes for it.

I know you must be frantic with worry, and I wish we could come up with something, but do keep up the baths and trying to tempt him with food by hand feeding.

Nina

[SamS]

Hi Nina

I have good news !!! He ate.....i offered him some cucumber and he ate it. I also left some Kale and dandelion on his slate so he has a nice little choice.

Drugs he gave me are Rheumocam and Baytril.

[Nina]

That's great news! Hopefully he has turned a corner and will start eating regularly!

Re the medication. Baytril is used successfully by many tortoise keepers and vets, but it only works on infections that are sensitive to Baytril treatment, so without knowing exactly what has caused the problem, it's sort of a guess -- but it sounds as tought it might be working well for Spike, so that is good news. However, Baytril can produce allergic reactions in some species of tortoise (see, for example, this article: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baytril.html ), and that is why it's important to have a vet that has 'exotics' qualifications, as ordinary vets aren't always aware of things like this.

Rheumocam is normally used on mammals and I can't find instances of it being used on tortoises, but I can see that in Northern Ireland it is authorised for use on lizards and tortoises as well as dogs, cats, horses, etc., so it should be OK.

I hope he eats the lovely food you've left on his slate, and do keep us posted.

Nina

[SamS]

Thanks Nina, do you think i should try the eye drops ?
There appears to be two types ? one with 0.3% and one with 0.5%

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=hypromello ... doa-p_1_22
I think he is definitely feeling better, he hasn't hidden himself away in the outside enclosure, although he is resting in the shade after getting some sun.
Hopefully he will have turned a corner and will continue to improve.

Do you think i should stop giving Frankie the Baytril then ?

[Nina]

I would go with the 0.3 one, and only if he is still rubbing his eyes a lot. Are both eyes fully open?

Re the Baytril -- he doesn't seem to be having a bad reaction to it, and in fact it might be doing some good, so I would keep it up for a while (how long were you told to give it to him)?

It's so good that he is looking better -- great news!

Nina

[SamS]

Hi Nina

He does open his eyes, but rubs them a lot. And the vet did comment and say they looked puffy and a bit swollen.
Gotta say though it's pretty difficult getting the meds into him because he is so small....I watched a you tube video on how to do it safely and correctly.

How much drops should I put in ?

[Nina]

Yes, I can understand that it must be difficult! Regarding the eye drops -- I think one drop in each eye will be sufficient, and good luck and keep us posted on progress. Is ti possible to post a photo of his eyes, so we can see the puffiness?

Nina

[SamS]

Hi Nina

We have some progress, today he ate more than he did yesterday! I offered him some cucumber and lambs lettuce and he ate more of the lettuce than he did the cucumber. His eyes look a little better too I think

What do you think ?

[Nina]

That is such good news! I hadn't seen his eyes before, but they don't look too bad at all in that photo (maybe a tiny bit swollen, but also maybe not, as tortoise's eyes don't all look the same, so it's hard to tell). In any case the time to worry is if the eyes are so swollen that they won't open, and his are certainly open. Did you try the artificial tears stuff?

Is it lambs lettuce from a supermarket that you're giving him? That is absolutely fine, but you want to try and add more fibrous plants like weeds from the garden (just take it slowly and the important thing is that he is eating). The reason I asked about Lamb's Lettuce is that there is another plant that is sometimes called Lamb's Lettuce that is a weed and is also good to feed. It looks a bit like forget-me-nots and here is our entry for it: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/pla ... nt=594&c=6

I think you've done a great job and he is definitely turning a corner -- yippee!

Nina

[SamS]

Hi Nina,

Yes it is Lambs lettuce from the supermarket. I don't appear to have any wild lambs lettuce round here...but i give him dandelions too and sow thistle, all from the back garden ( I don't use any pesticides etc in my garden).
He is definitely perking up, he went into his hide in his enclosure, then came back out again for a walk. I don't think he has huge amounts of energy due to him not eating properly. Oh and he had a small poo in is bath this morning too, so looking good on that front.

I will keep up the baths until he is fully recovered and eating well. I am so relieved he seems to be making progress. Fingers crossed he is on the mend.

[Nina]

You're doing a great job, SamS (lol, sorry I don't know your proper name), and he owes his recovery to all of your efforts, so you should be really pleased!

Nina

[SamS]

Hi

He is still not moving around much but when i offer him food he does eat. Still unsure of what is going on with him right now.

[SamS]

Hi Nina

Unfortunately Frankie passed away on Sunday morning. He woke up, ate some food, then I gave him a tepid bath. Then all of a sudden he pulled his head right into his shell and never came back out. His eyes were open and there was no response when I touched him. I left him until the next morning to be sure then buried him today.

I am still confused as to what happened and what was wrong with him.

Thank you for all your advice and help.

[Nina]

Oh my goodness, what terrible news and I am so sorry! I don't know what could have been the cause of his death -- you have tried everything to help him, and I just can't think of what it could have been. When you went to the vet, did he take a poo sample or swab to test for worms/parasites? Also, could you email me privately with the name of the vet you used -- nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk --- and do you know if it was a vet with 'exotics' qualifications? I'm sorry if you have already sent me these details, but I can't find them at the moment.

If you do want to find the cause of death, and you could dig up his body, then you could ask the vet to do a post mortem to find the cause, but that won't take away the grief you must now feel, could be expensive, and won't bring him back. I feel dreadful that we weren't able to help you more, and please don't hesitate to contact me personally if you wnat to chat about this (I could send you my phone number or you could send me yours, and we could speak at a time that is convenient for you).

When you feel able, and if you want to try again, we could send you names of UK tortoise breeders. The health of the UK-bred tortoise will be better than a tortoise bought from a shop, it will be cheaper, and most importantly the after sales service will be better because breeders only want a good home for their babies and are usually very good with advice if you have any problems. We also run a free rehoming service for people who can no longer look after their tortoise and those who want to give a home to a tortoise. Just let me know.

Once again, many condolences to you and your family on the death of little Frankie, and I just wish that we could have helped him -- and you -- more.

Nina