Cooling An Outside Enclosure

[StuartD]

I finally managed to finish our outside tortoise enclosure [see image of it before finished] for Crwban & Crempog late last year, but too late for me to be happy about letting them self-brumate in it; and on some days it struggled to have a low enough temp to suit brumation.

Anyway, since they came out of brumation they have been happily outside. For a good while we opted to restrict them purely to inside their hut because of the amount of rain, but have since removed that restriction. They, from simple observations, happily come and go between the hut and outside, but yesterday our Inkbird threw a bit of a wobble [I've asked the question of Inkbird about it, and await their response] and the heating element remained on. It was only because we were in the garden that I heard the beeping [note to self to check phone notification system]. Anyway, yesterday was our first very nice day and that probably contributed somewhat to it, but to cool the hutch down I raised the lid.

Today the outside temp is approx 15°C & overcast and the heating cut off as expected once ambient temp in the hutch hit 14°C but even though the Inkbird has consistently said 'cooling' the internal temp has climbed to 27°C. I can and do open the lid to allow it to cool and I noticed that throughout the winter [even though they were brumating elsewhere] we managed to keep a consistent temp of between 7-10°C due to the hutch being very well insulated by myself.

So, my question is more for the long term and also for when we are away, is: how to manage the temp to ensure if it is hot outside that the internal temp doesn't get too hot that it becomes dangerous for them?

The Inkbird has a hot and cold plug so I could plug something in to teh cold side, but the question is what? Or other suggestions that would aid - perhaps a curtain for the windows would aid..? I'd be open to installing a set of fans in the walls to aid airflow, or maybe lid stay that is triggered by a specific temp being reached [suggestions on what that temp should be also taken], etc

That said, if there is something I'm missing that would also allow them to over-winter in the hutch and keep the temps low enough to stop them from waking early or a wake/brumate cycle then that would be ideal. I could remove the black plastic flaps at the bottom for airflow but during winter months that would allow too much rain to enter.

Any and all thoughts welcome.

TIA, Stuart.
[attachment=0]Tort_Enc copy.jpeg[/attachment]

[Nina]

Great to hear from you, and your outdoor enclosure looks super -- lots of room, different textures for them to walk on and around and a really nice hut.

Just a few questions. When they go into their hut through the black flaps, is it soil or is there a paved floor as well? If there was a sudden thunderstorm could water flood into the hut?

There are a couple of problems with brumating outdoors in the UK. Is the shed predator proof? We know of tortoises that regularly brumated in their owners gardens by digging down under a shrub or something similar when winter came, but rats can burrow down, and we know of tortoises that have lost limbs from rats nibbling on them. And foxes can present problems too. Many people do leave their tortoises out 24/7 in the summer, but I'm afraid I bring mine in because there are rats around the area where I live.

Also, regarding self brumation in their hut -- it's good that you were able to keep the temperature between 7C - 10C over the winter, but 10C is a little warm for brumation (they start losing body fat if the temperature gets to 10C or above), and ideally you want to be between about 3C - 7C (5C being the ideal temperature). We've had warm spells in recent winters, which can be a problem if a tortoise wakes up properly during a warm spell. They have a substance called glycogen (which is a starch stored in the liver). When they wake from brumation this glycogen gives them an important boost to get them active and going again, but if they have woken for any length of time, they can use up that glycogen and from what I understand they only have one 'shot' of glycogen a year, and so can experience problems if they go back to brumation and then wake up properly later.

I'm afraid that I personally have no experience with Inkbird temperature control, but I would think that during the summer there's no need to have any heating in the hut, as they will go out in the morning and bask if the sun is out (if it isn't then I guess that is where the problems can start). Do they come and go as they please from the hut? If they do, then presumably if the hut is too hot then they'll just go outside to cool down. If they can't get out of the hut then I'm not sure.

My little greenhouse has self-opening windows that are triggered when the temperature gets too hot (it works by a little cylinder of wax that expands when it warms up), but there's no way to set a specific temperature -- something like this https://tinyurl.com/3tyexyvd (but you probably know about those already).

Apologies if I'm completely misunderstanding your set-up! I do think that you've built a really lovely outdoor enclosure, and sorry if I don't have answers to your questions (but hopefully someone will).

Nina

[lin]

Hi Stuart
Out of interest would you be able to open the enclosure/hutch and take a photo so we can see inside to get a better idea of what we need to advise.

Regarding the Inkbird, I don’t use one so I wouldn’t be confident in advising about them, however there is a Facebook group about brumation and they use ink it’s in their setups. I do think it would be useful for you to join the group and make contact with Jane Hanscombe or Andrew Taylor and let them know that Lin from TTT directed you to them. They have all the info you need about natural brumation and the use of Inkbird.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/643422690 ... ?ref=share

I hope this is helpful and if you need any more info get back to Nina and me and we will help.

Lin

[StuartD]

Hi Nina, ... a lot to pick through there and I'll try to answer in turn.

So their hutch area is soil with an approx 4ft of depth. Neither of them have shown to be big diggers but it is something we will keep an eye on. As to flooding, we haven't witnessed it being an issue and the soil I went with is designed to be a good drainer. There is also a slightly raised bar that sits between out and in that is also a mini-flood barrier of sorts.

Then, as with the rest of the enclosure, the entire sub-floor is covered by a fine wire-mesh to stop them getting through and in turn stop predators getting in. This wire mesh extends up the sides to at least the bottom of the decking boards or just presents to the wall on that side. What the picture doesn't show is the more recent additions including plants, more stones, etc and most importantly the wire mesh that goes across the entire surface. The bits down the side are manual lift in/out but the lid which covers the vast majority of the enclosure is on a pulley system which is only raised when we go in to do some work.

So yes, the hutch is predator proof.

We haven't yet self-brumated in the hut/enc because last year was the first year it was ready but I wasn't confident we could keep it cool enough on the warm November days we had. The temp range I gave was for on the colder nights and was just to show that the Inkbird can manage a temp range quite nicely. For brumating, if we get there, then I'd set it to a max of 6.5°C

My primary concern if I didn't translate it clearly enough is how to manage the temp in the hut on a two-fold basis:

1. During hotter months/days to keep it reasonable though we have noted they just come outside when the temp rises too much.

2. Longer term how to keep it cool (which may also fit in with point 1) during the months they might be brumating but the outside hasn't yet cooled enough for it to naturally be that cool.

The Inkbird does have a "cool" plug for adding a cooling device and my message was more about that and/or to see what others might be doing. If ultimately it has to be a manual process and we adjust were they are for brumation then so be it.

I have considered a greenhouse opener and I'd if I go that way I'd like to find a wifi operated one if I can. But would have to then consider how to use it whilst keeping the electrics protected.

Also, a simple aspect I can do, is hang a curtain across the hutch windows. Will help a bit.

[StuartD]

Thanks Lin...

And thanks for the link. I know Jane and Andrew but from another FB group. I've also seen Andrew's setup but he is using a shed for his with a, IIRC, a separate zone just for heating. I could go down that road but after the efforts to get this going then I don't think I'll go that route just yet.

I also didn't join that group as up until this year our little shells have been going in the fridge and the reason they started that group was to get away from fridge based issues - which is a fair point. I don't want to long term use a fridge as it's only a small one so as they grow [and no, they shouldn't grow hugely but ...] I don't want to keep buying new fridges

As to an internal pic that will need to wait as I'm away for a few days now.

[lin]

No worries Stuart, waiting is one of my better hobbies.
Lin