Herman's help!

[Sparky]

Hi everyone, this is my first post, but I am a bit worried about my little man Teeny Titan. I have owned him for two years and up to now he has lived in a vivarium. I was advised at the time of getting him that this was the set up he needed etc and have since learnt that it very much isn't. However. He was actually always pretty happy in his Viv, very active very playful with his ramps etc. I have recently moved him to a tortoise table and for want of a better word, he seems depressed. The table is quite large, has a lower section small rampy steps and a higher section and a covered sleeping section. I have a 125w D3 UVA/UVB bulb in a arcadia clamp lamp holder as his basking spot which is 30c. But he pretty much just seems to want to spend all his time in the covered dark bed section. I am worried that overall he just feels too cold as he used to the whole of his vivarium feeling warmer, and he might just need a bit of time to adjust but I couldn't really find any information on how best to introduce a tortoise from a vivarium to a table and I'm worried he's going to become unwell any help very gratefully received! Thanks Sarah

[Nina]

Hi Sparky and welcome to The Tortoise Table -- and I love the name Teeny Titan!

First of all -- well done for getting TT a tortoise table! We are constantly dealing with health problems that have arisen with tortoises kept in vivariums, so although you're having a difficult start, you've done the right thing, and it sounds like you've made a nice home for him.

Is it possible for you to post photos of your tortoise table? The sort of behaviour you describe is possibly him just getting used to his table, but it's more likely a matter of temperature and light levels (basically you want to fool him into thinking that it's a bright summer's day). Photos will need to be reduced in size, and if you have any problems, just send the photos to me and I'll reduce them and post them.

Regarding temperature -- can I ask where you are measuring the temperature? It should be measured directly under your bulb and at the height of his shell (a thermometer on a nearby wall will measure quite a few degrees cooler). So you are right in thinking that the temperature under his lamp should be around 30C (not too much higher), and you want the temperature at the cool end of his table to be around 20C. He shouldn't need any heat on at night unless the temperature in the room drops below about 13C or 14C.

The sort of thermometer I use is this one https://www.pharmacy-equipment.co.uk/pr ... er-tmm105/ You can buy them in lots of places, and basically you site the display unit outside the table, and then the probe on the end of the long wire hangs down into the table, in the circle of light, to just above where the tortoise's shell would be. An added advantage is that they have a Max/Min function so you can see how warm or how cold it got since you last looked, which is useful. It's also useful at this time of year to be able to lower or raise your lamp (to increase the temperature in the table if it's too cold, or to decrease it if it's too warm.

I have quite a long table and at this time of year I do add extra light -- I use one of those bendy desk lamps with a low energy bulb in it and just hook it over the side of the table to provide extra light. If we can see a photo of your set-up, we might be able to suggest small tweaks for improvement.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm sure we will be able to get Teeny Titan active again.

Nina

[Sparky]

Hi Nina, thank you so much for your detailed response. I changed Teeny's substrate tonight from the tortoise life sandy/soil to the topsoil/play sand mix. I gave him a good soak and he has been much more like his usual self playing and exploring his enclosure.

The probe on his thermometer was on the wall (now moved) but I think my lamp is actually a bit close to the wall of the table, I think I need to get one of those adjustable stands so I can get it a bit more centered on one end of his table. I moved it to under the bulb and the highest it got was 33c which to my understanding anything between 30-35 is good? I feel reasonably comfortable that the uva/uvb bulb is okay, but please take a look at the pics and let me know! The rest of the table is room temp. I think it would be a really good idea to get some extra light into his enclosure as that would be much more what he's used to, so I will do that too. I am building him an outdoor enclosure which will be ready for when the weather improves. I have 3 cats and a dog so need to make sure it's nice and secure for him!! I am currently keeping the door shut to Teenys room to stop the cats jumping on his table (he has a wire lid) as I think that might have been scaring him aswell. Thanks again. Sarah

[Nina]

Hi Sarah,

You've made a lovely tortoise table for the very handsome TT! Lots of interest for him, and things to walk round, over and under. Tortoises get
bored if they can see from one end of their table to the other without interruption, and you've broken up the sight lines, so it looks great.

The Tortoise Life mixture isn't bad, and you could have kept it, but a mixture of topsoil and play sand is cheaper and it's what most of us use.
Do spray it lightly every couple of days to keep it from getting dusty (or what I do is every three or four days I pour some water on it and mix it up
really well) It should be just the teeniest tiniest bit damp -- not at all wet (so if you take a lump of soil in your hand and make a fist, it
just almost starts to hold together).

A temperature of 33C is OK, but I wouldn't let it get any higher. Because your table is big, and TT can get away from the heat if he wants to, it's probably fine, but I would try to keep it at around 30C or 31C if possible. One of the problems with vivariums is that their enclosed nature means that you can't get a sufficient variation in temperature for them to move from warm to cool areas in order to thermoregulate.

Your lamp looks fine to me (are you able to raise and lower it?), but it could be maybe a few inches further into the table and away from the wall.
What is the temperature at the far end of the table? I was glad to hear that he's becoming more active in the new table -- maybe he was just
settling in and finding his feet.

Cat's aren't quite such a problem with tortoises (unless they view his substrate as a potential litter tray), but dogs shouldn't ever be left
alone with tortoises. Every year we hear stories of dogs that have lived happily with tortoises for many years and never paid them any attention,
and then one year they decide the tortoise is a chew toy and inflict terrible injuries. It's not the dog's fault, but if you have a dog then
having a wire lid on the table, or keeping the door closed is a good idea.

Teeny will love the outdoor enclosure you're building, and the UVB from the sun is a higher quality than what they get from their lamps indoors. Given what you've done with his indoor enclosure, i have high hopes for what you are going to make him outdoors. If you have access to one of those curved roofing tiles, they are useful for making a tunnel/hill in outdoor enclosures -- I've attached a photo of mine on top of theirs outdoors.
[attachment=0]IMG_7026 (Copy).JPG[/attachment]

[Sparky]

Thank you Nina, I am so happy he is out of his vivarium, it had been worrying me for a while but buying a new table was quite pricey, so had to wait a bit to afford it. I just want him to be happy in his home! The table came with a wooden arm with a ceramic holder for a bulb. I've modified it a bit as I couldn't fit the dome on it, but the only way I can currently adjust it is by repositioning where it is screwed into the side of the table, which isn't ideal and the bracket that came with the light dome that you can hang it from doesn't stretch quite far enough to centre it over that end of the table so i think I'm losing a bit of light/heat down the side of the wall. Thanks for your notes on the substrate and the heat, I think getting the adjustable stand will help with that as I can more easilly adjust it to keep it right.

As teeny tends to sleep in the covered box part at the end of his table would it be recommend that I take the lid off in the morning when he should be waking up so he is more aware of the lights etc? He's been in the table for a week now and everyday I have ended up waking him up & putting him under his lamp because if I don't he just doesn't seem to move? Not even when I put fresh food in. I don't know whether it's because in his old set up it was only really ever warm and light or dark and cool (as you say, impossible to create the right balance of warm & cool in a viv!) So he was always very aware when temp/light changed? I havent actually got a secondary thermometer at the bed box end as it's so far from the heat source it would just really be the temp of the house which varies between 16-23ish degrees depending on if I have the heating on. But I will get one so I can be more certain of the fluctuations.

Your outdoor space looks epic! We're really excited to create ours!!! And will definitely make sure it is secure from the other pets and anything else. Thank you so much for your help. I really hope teeny starts to feel more at home!

Sarah

[Sparky]

Good morning Nina,

Just a quick update, this morning, I tried taking the lid off the boxed area, turned the main room lights on to get it as bright as possible (i'm waiting for a lamp to arrive today) and for the first time in a week he's independently got up and started to explore his enclosure! He hasn't quite got as far as his heat/light lamp yet but it's definitely progress that hes up and moving! Hopefully as he starts getting used to the new enclosure and I can get it more directly bright with the lamp, I won't need to take the box lid off, but this feels like progress! Thanks for your help!
Sarah

[Nina]

Hi Sarah,

Most tables come with those fixed arms -- which is really irritating. There is a way around it though (although I can't see the whole arm in the photos you sent). In my table there is an upside down 'U'-shaped wooden arm that holds the lamp (it can also slide back and forth along the table, but that's just an extra feature and not necessary). Basically what I do is have a chain (you can buy lengths from ironmongers) that wraps around the wooden arm above, and then through the wire metal holder on the reflector cover for the bulb. Using two 'S' hooks I can lengthen or shorten that chain and therefore raise or lower the bulb. You could maybe tack a piece of wood onto the arm that extends over the table, just to get the light further over, and then hang the chain and the lamp holder from that (again, not completely sure how your set-up works, so just throwing out ideas. Here are two photos
[attachment=1]m_DSC02552.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=1]m_DSC02552.jpg[/attachment]
I wonder if you could modify yours a bit to accommodate that.

Regarding his sleeping and waking -- he really should sense when it is daytime and wake up and head towards the lamp, but as it's so far away, he might not be sensing that.. I wonder if you could leave the lid off the sleeping area, but just put a piece of card or wood or something over a quarter or a third of it on one end of the sleeping area. That would mean a shady dark place within that area but the rest of the sleeping area would be lighter in the morning and it might attract him out. Just a thought -- not sure how well it would work.

Teeny will love his outdoor enclosure. Roll on Spring and Summer!

Nina

[Nina]

Hi Sarah,

I was busy writing my post and didn't see your update! That's good news and I hope that he continues to improve. You can always just physically put him under the basking lamp in the mornings, and that might help him to learn where it is. Tortoises have amazing memories and it doesn't take them long to learn new things. Mine have a ramp leading up to a second level in their enclosure and it only took me putting some food up there once or twice and forever after they run up and down the ramp, getting lots of exercise, to see if there are any treats up there for them. Here is my Dolly gazing down from the top of the ramp, plus another close up of my chain with the 'S' hook, mentioned in my last post, and other person's table that uses a chain.
[attachment=1]m_IMG_9496.jpg[/attachment][attachment=0]'S' hook to adjust light height.jpg[/attachment][attachment=2]m_lamps hanging by chains.jpg[/attachment]

[Sparky]

Hi Nina,

Thank you so much. My arm is similar to the one in the last pic, but it was to wide to get the hook of the lamp over, but actually looking at your chain link suggestion I think with the purchase of a bit of a thinner length of wood and a chain I can fashion something myself. I had been looking at the adjustable stands but on taking the measurements I really don't think they would give me the flexibility I need.

I had physically put him under his heat lamp on a couple of mornings but he didn't seem to want to stay long and then went back into the shaded bed area and because it is so dark in that part and I hadn't been leaving the main room light on I think overall it just felt dark and sleepy in there for him, so he didnt come back out! It's a shame the lid on the boxed bit isn't made in part of mesh as I think that would help! But I can lay the lid sideways so it covers part of the area only so hopefully that will help!

I have just been in to check on him and he's now climbed on top of his succulent under his lamp and is getting nice and warm! His temp at shell level is currently just shy of 30, and he's actually put himself slightly higher... He might be seeking something slightly warmer as his overall viv temp would have always felt a bit warmer. I am happy though that he's moving around the table and has been up and about for a couple of hours now as that hasn't been the case for the last week. Hopefully, he will continue to improve!

Thanks again for your help and the pics, it's great to see what other people have done. Is there a gallery of people's tortoise table enclosures/outdoor enclosures anywhere on the forum? Always good to get some inspiration!
Thanks!
Sarah

[Nina]

Hi Sarah,

Was just wondering if Teeny Titan has continued to improve (hope so)! There isn't a gallery as such, but in the Enclosures section of this Forum some threads contain photos of enclosures, and you can Google 'outdoor tortoise enclosures' and see what comes up. I'm beginning to think that Spring is on its way and need to tidy up my outdoor enclosure soon. I sorted the indoor enclosure out before I woke mine up from hibernation last week, but they've already trashed it a bit and have eaten most of the plants.

Nina

[Sparky]

Hi Nina, thanks for checking in.

Teeny is doing okay...it's hard in a way for me to gauge as he had unfortunately spent so much time in a viv that didn't enable him to behave how he wanted to, if that makes sense so my judgemnt of what is 'normal behaviour' is probs not accurate. The viv was always bright and warm in the day or cold and dark at night so it was very defined and he generally spent most of his time in the warmer end and seemed to be pretty active throughout the day. In the table he's still spending a lot of time in the covered 'dark' end of the table and doesn't really seem to want to come out independently. He'll spend time under his heat lamp if I put him there but doesn't charge round the table in the way he used to in the viv. I'm happy with the substrate/lights/heat etc and he's eating, soaking, pooping, wee/urates all seem okay and I am very happy he's in the table now. I'm hoping that when we can start getting him outside and he can feel some proper sun on his shell he'll feel a bit better. I have also read all the sheets on hibernation so am very keen to try and get him hibernated this year, which will hopefully help him. Good to hear yours are doing well! Roll on spring! Thanks again, Sarah