Help with identification

[Lucre]

Hello!
I’m writing to you again to update you about my tortoise, little Jeff and how is he doing.
Jeff is good, he is starting to get out of his enclosure and wonder in my garden. Spring is great because I have lots of broadleaf plantain and wild dandelions growing in my garden and I stared to gro dandelions for this winter in order to feed them to Jeff hen there will be no wild ones.

He is a bit on the light side of the growing chart, but I’m talking about about 2-3 grams lighter than ideal so I am not worried... yet. For now he is a really happy tort, he likes walking and napping. Mostly napping on my porch, that is made out of dark stones, so it’s a bit warmer than the grass. He also has his food on the stones, so he get his beak and nailed smoothed.

Now that I have updated you, I am curious of one thing.

Is Jeff a Hermann’s tort, right? He is number one, while he was soaking to help him get rid of his first shed.
I am happy on how smooth the shell is growing, I make sure I sprinkle his food wit calcium and vit D3 twice a week and I spray his enclosure with water when it gets dry. I made a humid cave out of my garden’s moss, but he prefers napping under the light and the borrowing the soil for the night.

Regarding number 2 and 3... what species are these torts? They are one of my friend’s tortoises and I can’t tell her what those are.
If you can ID them for me, it will be great.

Be safe and do quarantine!
Lucre

[lin]

Hi Lucre.
Can you send in some more photos showing the plastron, the tail area so we can see the skin between the top of the leg and tail. The head and a shot from the side. It would be good if you could number each tortoise with the same number as the tortoises you have already sent ie: tort 1 and any future photos of that tortoise should also be tortoise 1.

Lin

[Nina]

Hi Lucre -- and how nice to hear from you again. I hope the weather in Italy is warmer than it is in the UK at the moment (we had two weeks of beautiful weather and now it is cold and wet again).

It is really good to hear how well you are keeping little Jeff! All the things you are doing (diet, going in the garden, feeding on stones to keep his beak down, calcium and vitamin D3 supplements, moist hide, etc.) are just great and I'll bet that Jeff is one happy tortoise. Did you manage to get rid of the vivarium, or are you still using it but with the doors off?

I wouldn't worry too much about his being lighter than the growing chart. Which growing chart is that? Is it the Jackson Ratio? If so then I wouldn't use that to judge his growth as it is really only meant to determine if a tortoise is of a suitable weight for hibernaton. And 2 or 3 grams is nothing to worry about -- some tortoises are just naturally/genetically bigger or smaller than others. I have two Horsfields and one is much smaller than the other -- just like some people are smaller than others.

Lin is going to come in to answer your questions about species. You know how some people are just not good at some things, even though they might have knowledge about closely related things? Well I'm terrible at IDs. I know all the things I should look for but have accepted that I will never be good at IDs (unless it's a Horsfield, which is the species I keep), and although I can make an educated guess, it's best to leave it to people who are better than me, so Lin will be along soon.

Nina

[Lucre]

Hi Nina, hi Lin!

I will send you the pictures you require for tort 2 and 3 in a bit, now the people that want me to help them are doing something else... but I’m attaching Jeff’s butt, head and plastron pics. The butt’s photo is kinda weird because he’s shedding so if you have problems just asks me to resend it.

The chart I am looking at is the Jackson Ratio, yes.

Jeff now only sleeps in the vivarium at nights or when it’s raining. I took away the doors. When it’s warm outside I place a old soft mat under my rosemary bush, I wrinkle it up and he goes there napping. Since I can’t go outside to buy the materials to build a pen for him, I just bring him inside when night comes. We have cats and mice and I don’t want Jeff to be out in the garden when I’m not around...

Thanks for all the infos you gave me. I’ll send the pics when they take the pics for me.



Lucre

[Lucre]

Here’s him while having lunch.
It was a rainy day, so I kept him indoors...

[Nina]

Hi Lucre,

Great photos and thank you. i'm sure that Lin will come in soon, but in the meantime my view is that he (or she) is definitely a Hermanns.

You might want to look at a really excellent website for Hermanns -- it's called Hermanni Haven and here is a link:
https://www.hermannihaven.com/general If you click on Comparing Hermanns Tortoise subspecies you will find amazingly detailed tips and marked up photos to explain how to tell if yours is an Eastern, Western or Dalmation sub-species of Hermanns -- and there is a wealth of other information on Hermanns there too.

Nina

[Lucre]

I tried to look but Hermann’s and Greek are so similar... I tried to look an Italian site and it say is that Hermann’s have solid black plastron while Greek have big black speckles, dots and spots. Jeff seems to have a black butterfly on his plastron and some small dots. I love his plastron pattern

But let’s see what Lin tells us.

P.S.: Tort 2 and 3 pictures will arrive this evening probably...

Lucre

[Nina]

Do have a good look at the information on that site I gave the link to. There are detailed photos on it that should help you, Hermanns certainly don't have a solid black plastron. Look, for example, and the first species on the Hermanni Haven site -- the Western Hermanns -- and you will see photos of plastrons. I would forget for now about Greeks and just check out all the photos of Hermanns and see what you think. I really don't think he looks like a Greek as his colouring is much more like a Hermanns.

Better yet, why don't you send photos to Chris Leone who runs that site (tell him the The Tortoise Table recommended him), and he will ID it for you straight away. His email is chrleone@gmail.com and I'm sure he will ID your sub-species too.

Nina

[lin]

Hiya Lucre.
Having spent a while looking at number 1, I am leaning towards a spur thigh tortoise. I cant say the sub species but looking at the head shape it could be Ibera. Could you send a photo of the head straight down.

Lin

[Lucre]

Here, look at the head

[Lucre]

Soooo...

Mr.Leone from GardenStateTortoise told me, I quote:
“Without a doubt you have a Testudo graeca, Greek tortoise.”

So now I need to search up a correct growing chart and see what can I do for my little Jeff (he is sleeping on my porch now).
I mean, I don’t think his diet will vary much, but you know... better be safe than sorry.

The Greek tortoises aren’t the giant ones, right? Because I have a garden, but not a very large one!
I believe the Greek tort is 30 cm for adult females, right?

Lucre

[Nina]

Hi Lucre,
That's great, and what is funny is that Lin and I have been on the phone talking about this for the last half hour and she convinced me that Jeff is a Greek tortoise, and gave her reasons why -- lots of very specific points that she noted. So I was definitely right in saying that I am rubbish at ID, but am glad I pointed you towards Chris Leone (but Lin would have told you the same thing).

Yes, they do get bigger than Hermanns, but you're right in thinking that they aren't really large.

You said he was IDd as a Testudo graeca, but do you know if there was any sub-species ID there?
Here is a care sheet for Testudo graeca graeca: https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf
And here is a care sheet for Testudo graeca ibera https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf

Nina

[lin]

Hi Lucre.

Just wanting to say that the head is looking very Ibera to me but I cant be 100% sure. Ibera tortoises (TGI) do get slightly bigger than the hermanns and TGG.

Nina, can I just say...Ner ner ner ner ner...I told you - Just off to find my big hat now.

Lin

[Lucre]

Good morning again!

This night I received another mail from Mr.Leone.

I quote:
“It appears to be the Asia Minor tortoise (Testudo graeca ibera) or what we many people refer to as the “ibera Greek”.”

So yeah, little Jeff is a Testudo Graeca ibera.

Now we wait to receive the pictures of the other two tortoises.

Many thanks to Lin, and to you, Nina.
A+ for effort Nina!

Lucre

[Nina]

That's great, Lucre, and you can read that care sheet for Iberas that i posted earlier, or I'm sure that Chris Leone has lots of good care and other information on his website. Here is his section on Iberas, and you can see photos of what Jeff will look like as an adult:
https://www.hermannihaven.com/t-graeca-ibera

Best ,
Nina

[Lucre]

Here is tort number 2

I believe 2 and 3 are both Herman’s but I don’t know...

[Lucre]

Here is a picture of 1 (Jeff, on the right) and number 2 (friend’s tort, left) next to each other.

My friend told me 2 was born on the same moth of Jeff, September 2019... but 2 was twice as heavy than Jeff.
And 2 has a lot of growth rings, like if 2 was older than it seems.

Do you know why? Are baby Herman’s bigger that baby Greeks?

[Lucre]

Here is tort number 3!

[lin]

Tortoise number 3 is a Hermann. Male.
Lin

[lin]

Yes, tort number 2, your right is Hermann.

Regarding size. I have just copied this as an average so don't take it as gospel.
---The most widespread and encountered Greek tortoise subspecies both in nature and captivity. Size and coloration varies incredibly, with some specimens surpassing 11” just like the eastern Hermann's tortoise (Testudo hermanni boettgeri). Typically, they reach dimensions of 6 to 8" for males and 7 to 9" for females.

However it must be said that like people tortoises are a rule unto themselves in size and grow at different rates and sizes.

Lin


Lucre wrote:
> Here is a picture of 1 (Jeff, on the right) and number 2 (friend’s tort,
> left) next to each other.
>
> My friend told me 2 was born on the same moth of Jeff, September 2019...
> but 2 was twice as heavy than Jeff.
> And 2 has a lot of growth rings, like if 2 was older than it seems.
>
> Do you know why? Are baby Herman’s bigger that baby Greeks?