HELP ! One, two or more Hermann's?

Post your pictures and any questions here of European tortoises e.g. Ibera Spur Thigh, Ibera Graeca, Marginated, Hermanns, Kleinmanni and we include the Horsfield tortoise. Also, do add pictures of Mediterranean tortoises you have seen in the wild.
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Yahtzdog
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Joined: 23 Apr 2020, 20:43

HELP ! One, two or more Hermann's?

Post by Yahtzdog » 24 Apr 2020, 15:43

I am new to keeping tortoises and in need of advice. When I decide to purchase, should I buy one, two or three? What are your experiences housing one male with one female? Male and male / female and female OR a male and 2 or 3 females. I would like to avoid conflict and aggression. If more than one, what size indoor table dimensions are necessary? Thank you for your help in advance. Love the page.

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Nina
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Re: HELP ! One, two or more Hermann's?

Post by Nina » 24 Apr 2020, 16:25

Hi Yahtzdog (sorry, I don't know your name) and welcome to the Tortoise Table! It's really great that you are doing your research and asking questions before you get your tortoise -- so many people don't and then they end up with real problems.

Unfortunately it is almost impossible to house one male and one female tortoise together, due to the male's aggression and relentless pursuit of the female. In the wild they are pretty much solitary animals, coming together only to mate, so keeping one tortoise on its own is fine. You can often (but not always) keep two females together. I have two females and apart from the first few weeks of lots of biting and ramming of shells to establish dominance (which was more traumatic for me than it was for them), they live happily together. I have occasionally heard of two males living together happily, but this isn't very common, and as soon as they reach adolescence they uually turn very aggressive towards each other. If you do want males and females then the usual rule is one male to at least two females and preferably three. This is so that while one female is being harrassed the others can have a bit of a rest. Unfortunately sometimes the male just decides to solely pursue the dominant female and then he has to be separated because he stresses her out too much.

Regarding indoor table dimensions, I would always say try and get the biggest that your space will allow (you can even think of making an 'L'-shaped table that fits around a corner). It also depends on the species you decide to keep, because some will get much bigger than others, but Hemanns are not a large species so there should be no problems. I have two Horsfields, which are also not a large species, and I have a 7' table for them, with a ramp leading up to a second level, and they still get a bit stir crazy. Whatever size table you decide on (and for hatchlings or very young tortoises you can make do with a 3' or 4'' table for a while), I would definitely look at having a second level because this gives them more opportunity for exercise.

Will you have an outdoor space for them when the weather is suitable? Tortoises really love being outdoors and the UVB you get from the sun is of a far better quality than anything our indoor lamps can provide, so do consider that too.

I would definitely consider purchasiing your tortoise from a UK breeder -- they will be less stressed because they haven't been imported, you will get good post purchase advice, the tortoise usually costs less than from a pet shop, and you might even get to meet your tortoise's parents. Depending on where you live we can probably point you to a good breeder in your area. You could also consider rehoming a tortoise. We often have tortoises for rehoming, with the provision that no money changes hands.

Here's a link to a good care sheet for Hermanns: https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf

Sorry to have gone on at some length, but I hope that answers some of your questions, and please don't hesitate to come back with more.

Nina

Yahtzdog
Posts: 16
Joined: 23 Apr 2020, 20:43

Re: HELP ! One, two or more Hermann's?

Post by Yahtzdog » 24 Apr 2020, 20:04

Thank you for the warm welcome. This site seems great! Appreciate your words of encouragement and help.

Yes, that is pretty much what I figured. If anything I will go with two females or one make only. I am looking at an 8' X 2' tortoise table and like your suggestion of adding a second 'upper deck' for more room. I plan on having an outdoor space for warmer months as well. I am in the USA and there are reputable breeders I am in touch with and feel very confident in the animals they are selling. Thank you for sharing the care sheet. Very helpful and informative. I'm realizing that you can never have too much information on tortoises as there is so much to learn. Do you own any Hermann's tortoises? Also, would you be able to show a picture of your tortoise table? Thank you Nina.

Yahtzdog
Posts: 16
Joined: 23 Apr 2020, 20:43

Re: HELP ! One, two or more Hermann's?

Post by Yahtzdog » 24 Apr 2020, 21:01

Nina - Also what breed are the females you have living together and how long have they been living together? Thank you.

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Nina
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Re: HELP ! One, two or more Hermann's?

Post by Nina » 24 Apr 2020, 21:58

Hi Yahtzdog,

Ahh, you live in the States! Whereabouts? I'm originally from the States (near Chicago), but have lived in the UK for many years. Depending on where you live, you might well have a climate that is more suitable for tortoises than we have here (England is as cold and rainy as everyone says!).

8' x 2' sounds fantastic. My table is 7' x 2' (it could only be 2' wide because of other things that are in the room). I have Horsfields (Russian) tortoises and they are both females. They did fight horribly for the first three weeks -- lots of fierce biting but no actual blood drawn, and shell ramming too, but then it suddenly settled down and they run around together like two little spinsters. I've had Doris for about 15 or 16 years and Dolly for 9 or 10 years.

Have attached some photos of my table (not sure if this is a good selection as I just chose quickly). The upside down 'U'-shaped fixtures that hold the lights are made so that they can slide back and forth on the sides of the table, which is useful. Also, the floor of the upper level lifts off for easier cleaning underneath it. If I had to do it all over I would make the upper level smaller. I put their food up there (so they are always running up an down it to see if there are any treats for them). , but they don't need quite that much space. The bottom space under the top level was originally meant as a sleeping area, but it's too big and so is a bit of wasted space. They do sometimes sleep under there, but tortoises actually prefer cramped sleeping quarters and like nothing better to cram themsleves into an area that seems too small for them. I would have preferred a slightly small upper level (and therefore a smaller sleeping area underneath it), thereby freeing up more space in the well lit main part of the table. I do have photos showing the construction of the table if you are interested.

Whatever table you choose, make sure that you have the ability to raise and lower the heat source in order to make it warmer or cooler underneath it. If the ambient temperature in the room is high then you will have to raise the lamp or it will be too hot underneath it, and if it is cold then you will have to lower the light. Also make sure you get a really good UVB light -- you can choose from a combination heat/light/UVB mercury vapour bulb or a fluorescent tube (which doesn't give off much light or heat, but does cover a wider area of the table. The right temperature and a good bright light are incredibly important, so I think it's the main thing to get right. Also, don't get one of those thermometers that is fixed to the wall of the table near the light as they will give you a very inaccurate idea of what the temperature is directly underneath the lamp. You need digital thermometer with a display unit that can be outside of the table and then a probe on the end of a long cord that can hang right down under the light (we buy them as digital fridge thermometers here, and I can show you what they look like if you are interested).
Nina
[attachment=0]IMG_9954 (Copy).JPG[/attachment][attachment=1]IMG_9953 (Copy).JPG[/attachment] [attachment=3]m_IMG_9496.jpg[/attachment][attachment=4]m_IMG_9416.jpg[/attachment][attachment=5]m_IMG_9402.jpg[/attachment]Nina
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Doris and Dolly.jpg.JPG
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Nina
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Re: HELP ! One, two or more Hermann's?

Post by Nina » 24 Apr 2020, 22:04

Sorry, a really old photo of the torts in the garden crept in there when I uploaded the others, and I can't seem to delete it without deleting everything and starting again!
Nina

Yahtzdog
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Joined: 23 Apr 2020, 20:43

Re: HELP ! One, two or more Hermann's?

Post by Yahtzdog » 24 Apr 2020, 22:44

Thank you so very much for all of your help with this. Your notes are very helpful. The pictures of your tortoise table are fantastic. I like the design you chose and see how it could be very functional. I will keep in mind your tips on lighting, temperature and thermometers. Once again, I thank you kindly. I am sure I will have additional questions! PS Doris and Dolly are gorgeous. Love the picture of them together outside. They look really 'happy'.

MorningDa
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Joined: 26 Oct 2023, 11:15

Re: HELP ! One, two or more Hermann's?

Post by MorningDa » 26 Oct 2023, 11:16

When it comes to housing tortoises, a lot depends on the species and your space. For many species, keeping a single tortoise is perfectly fine, but if you're considering multiple tortoises, it's essential to keep an eye on gender ratios to avoid conflicts.

One male and one female can be a compatible pair, but males might sometimes compete for the female's attention. Male-male pairings can be trickier due to potential aggression, so it's often better to keep males separate or with multiple females to distribute any mating interest.

The size of the indoor enclosure depends on the species and the number of tortoises. Generally, bigger is better, but it should be spacious enough for them to move comfortably. A good rule of thumb is 4 square feet per tortoise.

For more personalized advice and experiences, you should definitely check out the community at Tortoise Owner[https://www.tortoiseowner.com/why-and-h ... e-so-long/]. They have a wealth of knowledge and friendly members who can offer insights based on your specific situation.

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