Shell shape

Post your pictures and any questions here of European tortoises e.g. Ibera Spur Thigh, Ibera Graeca, Marginated, Hermanns, Kleinmanni and we include the Horsfield tortoise. Also, do add pictures of Mediterranean tortoises you have seen in the wild.
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Kpatt
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Joined: 14 Apr 2020, 14:34

Shell shape

Post by Kpatt » 14 Apr 2020, 14:42

Hi all new here! I was just wondering what you think about my Hermann's shell shape, is she starting to pyramid 😱 is it normal for their shell.to curl around their tail.like this? Oh I was trying to add photos from my phone but it says the file is too large, I have no idea how to change that 🤔

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lin
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Re: Shell shape

Post by lin » 14 Apr 2020, 15:37

You can send it to me at lin@thetortoisetable.org.uk and I will adjust and post for you.

Lin

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lin
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Re: Shell shape

Post by lin » 29 Apr 2020, 17:26

Kpatt has just sent these to go with her question above.
Isnt this a cute little tortoise.

Lin



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Kpatt
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Re: Shell shape

Post by Kpatt » 29 Apr 2020, 17:36

Thank you so much for doing that? I can't find any pics online of their behind area so if anyone could let me know their thoughts on Moe's shell that would be fab thanks

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Nina
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Re: Shell shape

Post by Nina » 29 Apr 2020, 18:35

Hi and thanks for the photos of the very handsome Moe! Well, he is very definitely male, isn't he?

I think his shell looks pretty good, although I think I can see some small raising of scutes that go down the middle of the top of his shell, and in one of the photos the scute just above the one that is above his tail does look like it is pyramiding a bit, but I don't think it is bad.

His shell does curve around quite definitely at the back, and I think this is fine as far as I know (but I'm not an expert on Hermanns). We have had two people contact us recently where that back scute that curves down over the top of the tail has resulted in cutting into the tail, or rubbing it so that a callous has formed, but that doesn't look like it is happening to Moe so I think he is absolutely fine.

I would make sure that he doesn't grow too quickly (one of the main causes of pyramiding), has lots of good calcium supplement along with UVB light, and that he doesn't have too much protein in his diet (high fibe/low protein is what they need). I would aim for an increase in weight of not more than 1g - 3g per month on average. This is just an average, so some months he will grow more and some less, but try and aim for that.

Hope that helps,

Cheers,
Nina

Kpatt
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Re: Shell shape

Post by Kpatt » 30 Apr 2020, 16:33

Thank you for the reply Nina, your opinion has put my mind at ease, we are going to check the Jackson ratio to see where he is with his weight and age just incase we have maybe been over feeding him.
When we got him we gave him a unisex name because we knew you couldn't sex them for years but we have always seemed to refer to him as a girl, poor lad 🙈 thanks for confirming he's a he 😂

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Nina
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Re: Shell shape

Post by Nina » 30 Apr 2020, 16:56

With a tail that size I don't think there is any chance the 'he' is a 'she' :D

I wouldn't use the Jackson Ratio for this -- it's really only meant to be used to judge whether a tortoise is of a sufficient weight to hibernate, and as a general measure it can be very misleading. Also, it was based on studies of tortoises in the wild, and is less accurate when applied to tortoises in captivity (but it's a good general scale for determining weight for hibernation). I think it would be best just to start from now and keep good records of his weight. Would you like a copy of our Tortoise Observation Records booklet (it's good for keeping those records and other things like the date you changed equipment, etc.). Just send me an email at nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk and I'll pop one in the post to you.

Nina

Kpatt
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Re: Shell shape

Post by Kpatt » 30 Apr 2020, 17:02

Oh don't worry about that, we will start keeping records again, we fell out of the habit a few years back 😬
Another thing while I've got you, he's just over six and we haven't been able to find a stable environment to hibernate him. Our fridges have always fluctuated between freezing and over 10 degrees 🤦🏻‍♀️ and winters outside fluctuate just as much, do you have any other suggestions of how else to do it, or how much will it damage his health having missed so many long sleeps? Thanks

Kpatt
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Re: Shell shape

Post by Kpatt » 30 Apr 2020, 17:06

I've just checked the calender she's nearly nine, where does the time go!

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Nina
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Re: Shell shape

Post by Nina » 30 Apr 2020, 18:29

Ahh, yes, fridges are the cause of worry for all of us, as they do fluctuate. Were you measuring temperatures in a larder fridge (i.e. a fridge without a freezing compartment)? That is where you start -- it can't have a freezing compartment. Some people use those drinks fridges (I think Huskey is supposed to be one of the better brands), but they have been known to fluctuate a lot too.

All fridges will fluctuate in temperature when you open them (every time you open the door to do an air exchange when tortoise is in it, the temp rises by a couple of degrees), so it's best to first make sure the thermometer you are testing it with is accurate (we can tell you how to do that), and then use a thermometer where you don't have to open the fridge to see the temperature -- one of those fridge thermometers with a display unit that sits outside the fridge and a probe on the end of a long wire that goes into the fridge (into the box where the tortoise is). They usually have a Max/Min facility on them too, so you can see how warm or how cold it got since you last set the function. Something like this (but you can get them cheaper -- I just googled and chose one: https://caterspeed.co.uk/product/hygipl ... gJU6_D_BwE Tortoises can happily take a temperature of between 2C or 3C - about 9C, but the best temperature to aim for is 5C.

Regarding whether he will suffer in the long term if he doesn't hibernate divides opinion a bit. Some people say that hibernation is only a response to climatic conditions, and others say it is an essential part of the tortoise's nature and biology. They do certainly come out of hibernation raring to go, but I have also known people who don't hibernate and their tortoises seem fine (but we don't know what the long-term effects will be). It is probably true that not hibernating does encourage more rapid growth, because if a toroise is awake all winter he is eating and putting on weight, but if he is hibernating for three months then he isn't eating and isn't putting on any weight. It's up to you. Personally I think hibernation is good for them, and when the time comes we would be happy to send you lots of information on hibernating, including the preparing the tortoise for hibernaion which is probably the most important part of the process.

Nina

Teddy28
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Joined: 06 May 2017, 10:57

Re: Shell shape

Post by Teddy28 » 01 May 2020, 11:51

Hello, hope you don't mind me jumping in on this post, Nina did you manage to find any info about using incubators for hiberbating? I think you were hoping to make some enquiries in tortoise circles. I know it's still a long way off hibernation time but I like to prepare well in advance especially me being a novice with a seasoned hibernating tort. Thanks

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Nina
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Re: Shell shape

Post by Nina » 01 May 2020, 16:22

Oh dear, yes I was going to make some enquiries and I never managed to do it, but I promise I will now -- sorry, and thanks for reminding me!

Nina xx

Teddy28 wrote:
> Hello, hope you don't mind me jumping in on this post, Nina did you manage
> to find any info about using incubators for hiberbating? I think you were
> hoping to make some enquiries in tortoise circles. I know it's still a long
> way off hibernation time but I like to prepare well in advance especially
> me being a novice with a seasoned hibernating tort. Thanks

Teddy28
Posts: 156
Joined: 06 May 2017, 10:57

Re: Shell shape

Post by Teddy28 » 02 May 2020, 11:40

Oh please don't feel you have to apologise, I'm sure you're busy enough answering other queries and providing advice x

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