Weight loss

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Andy nelson
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Joined: 19 Nov 2017, 14:00

Weight loss

Post by Andy nelson » 05 Oct 2018, 07:57

Hello all.
I am a bit concerned about my tortoise as he is loosing weight. He has lost 23g over the past 2 months.
He is about 5 years old ( Herman tortoise) and I have owned him for the past 18 months and last winter he had a vivarium where he was always clawing at the glass.
Following advice I bought him a table which he loved all summer. The past 2 months I have noticed he is less active and virtually eats nothing.
The room he is in is cool in the morning but still gets around 29 degrees under the basking lamp.
Is he getting ready for hibernation or do I need to take him to the vet?
I have also been contemplating placing a bespoke cover over the table to try and raise the temperature for him.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Andrew

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Nina
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Nina » 05 Oct 2018, 09:49

Hi Andy and welcome to The Tortoise Table!

It is great that you changed your vivarium for a table, as that is a far better environment for your tortoise.

You might well be right in thinking that he is thinking about hibernation, as most tortoises are doing that now. It is also possible that he is a little under the weather, so a visit to a vet might be in order (and if you go, do take a sample of poo with you so that it can be analysed for worms or other parasites), and do us a good reptile/exotics vet -- see the list on our website of recommended vets.

However, before you think about the vet, it could well be that your set-up just needs a bit of tweaking to get him going again. Temperatures and light levels are really important for tortoises and have a huge effect on their activity. I you would like to post some photos of your set-up, it might be that we could suggest small changes that could help.

What you are aiming for is a temperature of about 30C (not too much higher) directly under the heat source and measured at the height of the tortoise's shell (not measured by a thermometer on a nearby wall). So you might need to hold the thermometer at the right height under the lamp to get an accurate reading (or get one of those fridge thermometers with a digital display unit and a probe on the end of a wire (something like this: https://tinyurl.com/yctze8bv ) but you can get them in loads of places and they usually have a Max/Min facility so that you can see how hot or cold it got since you last re-set it). At the cool end during the daytime it should be about 20C, and no heat at night needed indoors.

Rather than putting a cover over the table to keep your temperatures up, it would be better to get a higher wattage lamp, or just lower the lamp you have so that it is closer to the table. Is your heat lamp one that produces UVB as well as heat, or do you have a separate UVB source? It is also important that the light you have is bright (to fool the tortoise into thinking that it is a bright summer's day), so sometimes an extra light source is helpful. Here is our article on overwintering tortoises: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... 7ckbfZReM8

When tortoises go into hibernation mode they just want to sleep and not eat, so if you are not planning on hibernating this year, then you will need to get him up each morning and put him under the lamp to heat up -- and maybe do this three or four times if he keeps going back to his sleeping place. Usually after two or three weeks of doing this they will wake up by themselves again. For feeding, try handfeeding him with some of his favourite foods -- and most tortoises will eat cucumber, so a thin slice of that can be tempting, and then you can make a little cucumber sandwich with some good leaves/flowers inside it to gradually get him eating again.

Sorry to have gone on at such length, but I know how worrying it can be when tortoises don't eat, and there can be many causes of this. If he is healthy and you do want to hibernate him, then we can send you good instructions on how to prepare him for hibernation and the hibernation itself.

Nina

Andy nelson
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Andy nelson » 05 Oct 2018, 10:05

Hi Nina.
Thanks for your reply.
I have a separate uvb lamp and a halogen type basking lamp. I measured around 28 degrees at shell height this morning but it was as cold as 21 by his house compartment. He usually gets up at 6.30 ish but now he just comes out walks to the lamp for a few minutes, then heads back to bed.
I will post some pictures of his table when I get home later.
Thanks again
Andrew

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Nina
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Nina » 05 Oct 2018, 10:50

Thanks, Andrew. At least he is waking up in the morning -- my Horsfields haven't woken up by themselves for several weeks now, and I am having to wake them up each morning. That is usual for this time of year for mine, but as I'm not ready for them to go into hibernation yet I need to keep them up and eating for another month at least. You might try hand feeding him once he has warmed up, just to get him going again -- that often works.

28 C isn't bad, but if you could get it up a degree or two by lowering the lamp an inch or so that would be great. 21C away from the lamp is perfectly fine. It means that he can heat up and cool down as he sees fit, by wandering over to the lamp and back.

Cheers,
Nina

Andy nelson
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Joined: 19 Nov 2017, 14:00

Re: Weight loss

Post by Andy nelson » 05 Oct 2018, 17:43

Hi Nina.
I can't post pictures of the table as it keeps saying the file is too large!!
Have adjusted the basking lamp now and am getting 31 degrees at shell height.
I tried hand feeding him but he isn't interested.
Tried cucumber, dandelion and strawberry but he won't touch anything.
Andrew

Andy nelson
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Andy nelson » 05 Oct 2018, 17:47

Just headed straight back to bed!

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Nina
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Nina » 05 Oct 2018, 18:29

Oh my, you have one determined tortoise there. Can you reduce the size of your photos before posting them? If not, don't worry, as it sounds like you've got a good set-up. We had someone else recently whose tortoise was just sleeping most of the time and not eating at all, and after determined efforts to wake her up each morning and put her in front of the light, and offering favourite foods, she did just start eating yesterday. Tortoises can be very stubborn and very determined, so it might become a battle of wills!

The thing is that tortoises can go a very long time without food, but they can dehydrate easily, so it's important that you give him nice long (15 - 20 minutes) baths every day or every other day in a container that he can't see out of -- like an old washing up bowl -- in water that comes up to the line where the top shell meets the bottom shell (or up to his chin).

Do you have a good reptile vet? If not, have a look at the list on our website https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... 7ee2_ZReM8 . If you can't find one there, let us know roughly where you live and we will see what we can do. You mentioned that he has lost over 20g in the last couple of months, but what is his weight now (just checking what percentage of his total weight that he has lost.

Nina

Andy nelson
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Andy nelson » 05 Oct 2018, 20:22

Hi Nina.
He was 290g now he is 261g. I live in South Wales, blackwood to be exact.
Would you recommend hibernating him?
Andrew

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Nina
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Nina » 05 Oct 2018, 21:55

Hi Andrew,

Well, he has lost nearly 10% of his body weight, which is the maximum that we would expect a tortoise to lose in hibernation, so I'm not sure I would hibernate him this year, because you don't know if his lack of appetite is because he wants to hibernate or because he is unwell in some way. A tortoise does need to be in really good condition in order to have a successful hibernation and I'm not sure I would risk it until you know for sure why he has stopped eating.

We only have three vet practices in Wales on our list, but I don't know if any of them are near you. I looked at vet practices in your area, but I don't know if any of them have an exotics specialist. I looked at the websites of two of them near you and no exotics or reptile specialist vets were listed. However, there is a group called Origin Vets located in Wales, who specialise in 'exotic' animals (which includes tortoises), and they work with partner vet practices and travel around to meet customers at one of those practices. Here is a link to the relevant page on their website: http://originvets.org/where-to-find-us If you scroll down and see that there is a vet practice near you, then you could make an appointment to see a vet from the Origin group at your local veterinary surgery.

I'm afraid that is all I can think of at the moment, other than to keep up nice warm baths so he is well hydrated, and keep trying to hand feed him nice little bits of something he likes.

Please let us know how you get on, and if we can think of anything else we'll let you know -- and don't hesitate to ask us any more questions.

Nina

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lin
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Re: Weight loss

Post by lin » 05 Oct 2018, 23:15

I would tent to agree with Nina's good advice, Andrew, and say to do your best to not hibernate him.
Just keep up the getting him up and offering him food, allowing hin do go back a few times in the morning and again in the afternoon returning to his sleeping area but offering him food in the meantime.
Bright light and as you have raised the heat a tad see how that goes for a while. I would leave a leaf in front of him and leave the room for half hour and then go back in, get him up again, place him under the basking area, offer another leaf and leave the roon....repeat three times and give him a rest till the afternoon and start the process again but leave the room between each offering if you get what I mean.
See how that goes for a few days and get back to us with the new weights say on sunday dinnertime.

Lin

Andy nelson
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Andy nelson » 06 Oct 2018, 08:47

Thanks both! I will see how he goes over the weekend!
Andrew

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lin
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Re: Weight loss

Post by lin » 06 Oct 2018, 10:21

Keep us posted please Andrew.
Lin

Andy nelson
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Andy nelson » 06 Oct 2018, 17:16

Hello again.
Update.
I have woken him up 3 times now and placed him under his lamp.
I have given him fresh food (cucumber, rocket and dandelion leaves) but he still hasn't eaten anything.
He basks for s few minutes and goes back to bed!!!
One thing I have noticed is early on in the day his basking temp goes down as the room is cooler (I assume) I was getting 26 to 28 at shell height. I was having to lower his light drastically to get it up.
I have now bought a higher wattage lamp which is getting 35 now at shell height. He has spent a little longer basking since I fitted it but still won't eat.
Going to try him again tomorrow now.
Andrew

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lin
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Re: Weight loss

Post by lin » 06 Oct 2018, 17:29

I feel sure he is watching and enjoying you squirm Andrew - :lol:

If you feel in the least unsure or unhappy with his behaviour and your doing as we suggest then I wonder if you would feel better and have your mind put to rest from taking to visit one that is a reptile vet that specalises in tortoises.

Did this all start when he got brought in from outdoors?

Lin

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Nina
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Nina » 06 Oct 2018, 18:27

It certainly seems like you are trying all the right things. Are you tempting him with the dandelion, etc. by holding it in your hand? I agree with Lin that a visit to the vet might be in order, and I think that the Origin Vet link that I gave in a previous email might be the way to go, as they are specialists in exotic species, and you can meet one of their vets at a practice near you. If you do take him to the vet, it would be ideal if you could take a sample of poo with you (and you can keep it in a sealed container in the fridge for several days if necessary) -- but if he hasn't been eating at all then I expect he hasn't been pooing either.

The temperature of 35C at shell height is a little high, and if you can get it down a bit that would be better (30C is the ideal temperature). Is he having baths regularly so that he can rehydrate? Sorry to ask so many questions!

Nina

Andy nelson
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Andy nelson » 06 Oct 2018, 21:09

Hello.
Firstly Lin, he has not been outdoors. He has been indoor since I've had him although he was in a vivarium until I bought him a table in the summer.
Yes he hasn't been pooing.
I have tried holding dandelion leaves, rocket, cucumber and even a slice of strawberry but he's not shown any interest.
Will try to see when I can make an appointment to see an exotic vet on Monday.
On the plus side he did climb over his log house last time I tried him under the lamp.
Andrew

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lin
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Re: Weight loss

Post by lin » 06 Oct 2018, 21:42

It does sometimes take a good few weeks to break them out of hibernation mode Andrew. I hope you are on the way to success with that but it can be so tense during the wait.
Fingers crossed its not to long now, especially as he has made a little divertion in his journey back to his sleeping area.

Let us know how it goes trying to make a vet appointment please, and good luck.

Lin

Andy nelson
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Andy nelson » 07 Oct 2018, 13:29

Hello.
I got him up and put him under his lamp first thing today. He spent a good 10 mins basking but showed no interest in food again and went back to his bed.
When we returned from taking my daughter's swimming he was out of his bed sleeping in the cool part of the table.
I placed him under the lamp which he spent about 5 mins basking then offered him a dandelion.
He ate it all, started slowly and seemed groggy at first but seemed more lively with every bite.
I sent the girls out looking for more and they return with another 4.
I gave him a bath for 15 mins and he ate another 3 dandelions before going to bed!
I'm overjoyed he has eaten!!!
I did weigh him again and he has lost another 3 grammes but fingers crossed he's getting his appetite back!
If he continues to eat do you still think he needs to see the vet?
Andrew

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lin
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Re: Weight loss

Post by lin » 07 Oct 2018, 14:08

well Andrew. I would say he is slowly but surely turning the corner and if he keeps this up over the next day or two you will see a big change in him. Hopefully the hibernation pull is relaxing its grip.
Keep it up and well done and put the vet on a back butner for a while until you know what way this is going to pan out.

Lin

Andy nelson
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Andy nelson » 08 Oct 2018, 12:01

Hello
I got him up this morning and after a long spell under his basking lamp he had a piece of cucumber !
Fingers crossed he is turning the corner!
Will carry on waking and trying to feed him 3 times a day for the next few days and see how he goes.
Thanks Nina and Lin for your help!
Andrew

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Nina
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Nina » 08 Oct 2018, 12:33

That is such good news, Andrew! He actually has come around fairly quickly, as often it takes several weeks of manually putting them under the lamp before they will respond. I know you're not out of the woods yet, but it looks like he has definitely turned a corner. Do let us know how he gets on over the next week or so.

Cheers,
Nina

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lin
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Re: Weight loss

Post by lin » 08 Oct 2018, 14:37

Nothing like some great news to keep you going through the day Andrew.
Well done for keeping on top of all the hard and tedious work but without you doing this it would never have happened and you would still be worrying.

Keep us posted and if anything else is needed just give us a shout.

Lin




Andy nelson wrote:
> Hello
> I got him up this morning and after a long spell under his basking lamp he
> had a piece of cucumber !
> Fingers crossed he is turning the corner!
> Will carry on waking and trying to feed him 3 times a day for the next few
> days and see how he goes.
> Thanks Nina and Lin for your help!
> Andrew

Justine1599
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Justine1599 » 08 Oct 2018, 16:40

Andrew has been so committed to our tortoise. Shelley has eaten two fair sized meals today and I am over joyed. Thank you all for your support :D

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lin
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Re: Weight loss

Post by lin » 08 Oct 2018, 21:42

Just by reading his notes alone I have gathered that Justine. Actually I feel quite proud of him.
No need for thanks, the commitment is more than enough and thanks should go to you, Andrew and the lovely Shelley.

Lin

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Nina
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Re: Weight loss

Post by Nina » 08 Oct 2018, 22:25

Lovely to hear from you, Justine. I think that you and Andy are proving to be really excellent tortoise keepers, and Shelley is lucky to have found a home with you!

Nina

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