New tortoise - first time owner

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baz180
Posts: 5
Joined: 07 May 2022, 09:57

New tortoise - first time owner

Post by baz180 » 07 May 2022, 10:22

Good Morning, all

We recently bought a young Hermanns tortoise for my daughter's 9th birthday (hatch date Oct 2021). While we are doing our best to create an environment where it will be happy and healthy, there is so much contradictory advice out there that it's hard to know if we're doing the right things. I'm concerned that Turbo (yes, obvious name, I know) is not particularly active nor eating much, which may be down to the environment we have created. I have provided images of the set up and the temp/humidity levels. Basking temp seems ok, but I am a bit worried about humidity levels. Today, I intend to add some forest bark and jungle earth as substrate to give a bit more variety. I have also recently bought some botanical flower mix to improve its diet (it's only ever eaten lettuce leaves so far). He/She has never used the water bowl in the table, but we bathe it every few days. I also mist the enclosure every few days too and add calcium dust to it's feed on Sun and Wed. When we first bought Turbo he/she excreted urates but I haven't seen this recently - is that a bad sign? This site/ forum is really helpful for advice, which I have been following, but wanted to share my concerns and seek some helpful advice from experiences keepers. Look forward to chatting!

Thanks
Barry
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Nina
Posts: 2003
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: New tortoise - first time owner

Post by Nina » 07 May 2022, 12:38

Hi Barry and family, and welcome to The Tortoise Table!

Congratulations on welcoming this lovely little Hermann's tortoise into your home, and even more congratulations on housing him in a tortoise table (so many people are mis-sold vivariums and then have no end of health problems).

First of all, small tortoises do sleep a fair amount, but he (or she) should still be active and eating for a good portion of the day. I wonder if it is a bit too warm for him in the table. Your thermometer is showing what looks like 93F (about 34C) and that is too warm -- not super dangerous as long as he can move away the heat into a cooler area, but you do want it a bit lower (see below).

The one thing I would change if possible in that table is the way the lamp is fixed to the wooden arm arm that holds it (so many tables have these fixed arms, which are a real hindrance to good husbandry). You want the temperature directly under that lamp, and at the height of the tortoise's shell to be about 87F (30C), and at the cooler area of the table it should be about 68F (20C). A digital fridge thermometer with a probe on the end of a long cord is ideal as you can site the display unit outside the table and then hang the cord and probe down into the table so that it is near the circle of light from the lamp. And most of them have a Max/Min feature, so that you can see how hot or cold it got since you last looked. Something like this: https://thermometer.co.uk/fridge-freeze ... H3EALw_wcB but you can get them in lots of places. I think the Max/Min feature is really important, and you can find thermometers like the one I gave the link to, a bit cheaper but still with the max/min facility (I can send you a link of you need one).

Also those thermometers that are fixed to a wall, even a few inches away from the light, will show a temperature that is cooler than it is directly under the lamp. Ideally you want to be able to raise the lamp to lower the temperature, or lower the lamp to increase the temperature, depending on how warm it is in the room. I find that on hot days I need to raise the lamp up very high, and on cold days I need to lower it to get it warm enough in the table. Many people fix their lamp to a chain that is attached to the arm, a bit like this.
[attachment=0]m_DSC02552.jpg[/attachment]
Or sometimes the arms themselves are adjustable.

I am assuming that your lamp is a mercury vapour all-in-one heat, light and UVB lamp, and if so then it should really be in a reflector shade to protect your eyes. That silver coating on the outside of it will do a lot to protect your eyes from the UVB, but if your daughter's head is below the light and she looks into it then it could damage her eyes, so a shade is always best.

I don't think there is any need to get the forest bark or jungle earth. You have a good looking substrate there (it looks like Tortoise Life), and in the wild they do live on a sandy soil substrate so what you've got is very good. In addition, the bark can grow mould if it gets wet from the water bowl, and it is also a bit of a fire hazard should the lamp blow and hot pieces of glass fall onto the substrate (and you don't really need a different substrate in the sleeping area either).

So, having said all that (and I am so sorry that this is such a long post!) -- I think you have made a really nice looking environment for Turbo. Lots of things to crawl under and over and keep up his interest, so well done to you and your daughter!

Regarding diet. Lettuce has very little nourishment in it, but it does have a fairly high water content, so it will help to keep him hydrated. Tortoises need a low protein/high fibre diet, and they need to grow slowly (if you offer too much food and he grows quickly, then his shell could become deformed). It's good to get into the habit of weighing him every couple of weeks or once a month, and what you are looking for is a weight gain of between 1g - 3g per month (that is just an average, and some months he will grow more and some less), but if he consistently gains a lot more each month then you should cut down on what you are feeding him.

Edible weeds and flowers are the best diet for tortoises, and you can always type in the name of a plant in our database to see if it is edible. You can also use the filter tool produce lists of edible plants for him. Go to this page and scroll down to the section called 'How to Use the Traffic Light Filters' and you'll find instructions. https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/pla ... nZUkFTMLwo And do let me know if you have any problems.

It might be difficult to persuade Turbo to eat nice weeds, as he is used to lettuce (which is easy to eat and sort of like junk food), so you can start by cutting the lettuce up into small pieces, wet it, and then cut some weeds (dandelions, sowthistle, plantain, campanula -- any edible plant) up into even smaller pieces and sprinkle a few of those onto the lettuce. The good plants will stick to the wet lettuce leaves so that when he goes for some lettuce he will get some of the other plants. Gradually decrease the amount of lettuce and increase the amount of good stuff until there is no more lettuce. They don't excrete urates every day, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Are you able to get him outdoors when it's warm (he will love it and the sun is the best source of UVB)?

As Turbo is only small, he won't be eating very much. A guideline on how much to feed him is as much as he can eat in 20 minutes, once a day, or enough leaves, flowers, etc. that would make a little blanket to cover his shell -- once a day. But the best way is to monitor his weight. Would your daughter like a complimentary copy of our Tortoise Observations Records Booklet? Its just a way to keep all your records in one place -- weight, change of equipment, illness, hibernation, vet details, etc. If you email me your name and address to nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk I'll pop one in the post to you.

Finally, here is a link to a good care sheet for Hermann's tortoises if you don't already have one: https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf

I do apologise for such a long post, but I thought I would put everything into one post rather than dribs and drabs (I hope you aren't completely bored by now!). I do think that Turbo is very lucky to have found a home with a family who obviously love him and are doing their best to ensure he has a long and healthy life.

Nina
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lin
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Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:27

Re: New tortoise - first time owner

Post by lin » 07 May 2022, 12:58

Hi Barry and thanks for contacting us regarding Turbos care, and what a lovely gift for your daughter.
Just to start off here is a caresheet that we recommend for Hermann tortoises. https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf

If it were me I would take her/him off the lettuce straight away, she will thank you for it in the end. You can however use a leaf of the lettuce crushed up to smear over a Sow Thistle leaf or Plantain leaf or any one (just one is easier to track for now) of the good feeds listed in our database. Put it in front of tortoise and leave the room for an hour, don’t peep or don’t go back in. After the hour is up have a look. Hopefully it will be gon but if not leave it a while and repeat. A healthy tortoise will not starve itself and it could be 3 days before it gives in but it will. Here is our article on how to correct a bad diet and you night find some helpful tips.
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... nZa5S_TWfA

There is something else I would like to suggest and that is that the humidity and thermometer gauge your using isn’t the best. Forget about the humidity but the temperature directly under the light needs to be 30 deg C and to measure this we would recommend one of these type to measure that —
https://tinyurl.com/2w3tucmr. As it goes that is a good one because it has two probes to measure the basking area under the light at tortoise shell height and another to measure the cool end.

The last thing I would mention is the light. I assume it’s a combo heat and uvb and that’s fine but the rest of the table looks rather dull and if you think wild and how tortoises live it’s under the Mediterranean sun and how bright that is. So I think you might get turbo eating and behaving better if it were much brighter by adding a low power light that will give off a really bright light so it’s like the middle of the day outside.

If you have anything else to ask just give us a shout or if the eating habits does not change in 5 days let us know.
Hope this is helpful and fingers crossed.

Lin

baz180
Posts: 5
Joined: 07 May 2022, 09:57

Re: New tortoise - first time owner

Post by baz180 » 07 May 2022, 16:28

Dear Lin and Nina

Thank you both very much for your incredibly helpful and comprehensive replies. I am somewhat relieved that, in general, it's environment isn't too bad. I will cut out lettuce immediately and keep working on improving the diet. I had ordered a lamp/lamp stand before the table arrived but seeing it had an arm on when it arrived I used that instead, though it didn't allow me to put on the lamp's shade. I have now removed the arm and am using the lamp holder with ceramic shade instead. However, I'm fairly sure the lamp holder is too small so have just ordered a bigger one so I can easily adjust the temperature. I have also ordered a thermometer as advised so will soon be able to better control the temperature. I think it's probably too hot under the lamp at the moment so I'll need to be able to raise it more, which should also help provide better coverage across the table. We will get Turbo outside as soon as we can and am looking into providing secure environment to do so. Nila - thank you for your offer of sending an observation record. I will take you up on that, and message you directly. Thank you!

I'll drop a message in this forum again in a couple of weeks to let you know how we are going.

All the best
Barry

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Nina
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Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: New tortoise - first time owner

Post by Nina » 07 May 2022, 18:37

Hi Barry,

It sounds like you have it all well in hand, and I think Turbo will go from strength to strength! If cutting out lettuce altogether seems too drastic, and he balks at eating good food, you could try the more gentle technique of mixing them first and gradually withdrawing the lettuce. But he might surprise you -- especially if you offer him something that he really likes (most tortoises love dandelion flowers and leaves, and sowthistle flowers too). See how you get on and please don't hesitate to contact us if you have any questions or problems.

Cheers,
Nina

baz180
Posts: 5
Joined: 07 May 2022, 09:57

Re: New tortoise - first time owner

Post by baz180 » 30 Aug 2022, 12:10

Hello Lin and Nina

I wanted to check in and provide a brief update on Turbo. He/she's been putting on weight consistently. He weighs 88g at the moment, up from 60g in May when we began keeping a log. Is that a healthy weight for approaching their first year (was born in October)?

I've noticed he seems to be slowing down somewhat and laying in a lot more, or not as active. Given the heat of summer we have put him outside often (he escaped once and we thought we lost him but was delighted to see him back the next day). I therefore haven't improved the lighting yet but I will do soon as I gather that they shouldn't be put into hibernation so young so we will need to keep him active through artificial light/heat. Is that correct?

Otherwise, I think Turbo is doing ok.

Barry

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Nina
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Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: New tortoise - first time owner

Post by Nina » 30 Aug 2022, 16:58

Hi Barry,

Great to hear from you, and yes Turbo's weight at 88g seems very good for a tortoise that is not yet a year old. Do be sure that he doesn't grow too quickly, though, as you are aiming for nice slow growth -- between 1g - 4g per month, on average.

In the wild a tortoise would have to hibernate during their first year, but in captivity we advise that you should have a tortoise at least a full year before hibernating him, and I do think that Barry is a bit too small to hibernate this year, so keeping him awake is the best option.

You'll want really excellent light levels and temperatures, to fool him into thinking that it is a nice hot sunny summer's day, as otherwise he might well go into hibernation mode. And of course you need a really good source of UVB, so that he can produce vitamin D3, which enables him to turn the calcium supplements you give him into good strong shell and bone. Are you still using the calci dust? You might try Nutrobal as well, as that has vitamin D3 added to the mixture. I think I'd sprinkle the calci dust on every other day, and on the days when you don't use calci dust you can use a tiny pinch of Nutrobal.

I'm so glad that you found him when he escaped (they are astonishing at escaping in all kinds of ways, including burrowing down and under and out of a walled enclosure as well as climbing near vertical surfaces!).

Nina

baz180
Posts: 5
Joined: 07 May 2022, 09:57

Re: New tortoise - first time owner

Post by baz180 » 30 Aug 2022, 22:15

Hi Nina

Thanks again for taking the time to reply. I am still using the calci-dust but will get the nutrobal as suggested, and not hibernate this year.

Can I just check something on the lighting too. Earlier in the thread Lin advised to add a low power light to the enclosure to make it brighter. I've been looking for something suitable but am not sure what to go for. Would an Arcadia Pro T5 strip lamp be the sort of thing Lin was referring to? I have read the forums and note that these are recommended to hang over the enclosure. I'm not particularly handy so wasn't sure if there is a simpler alternative to add to the combo heat/uv lamp that's currently there?

Thank you
Barry

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Nina
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Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: New tortoise - first time owner

Post by Nina » 31 Aug 2022, 09:01

Hi Barry,

If you already have a combined heat/light/UVB bulb in there, then there is no need to add in an Arcadia Pro T5 strip. It's true that it is a low power light, but its main function is to provide UVB. Many people use the UVB strip lights instead of a combo light, because it enables you to raise or lower the position of your heat lamp in order to raise or lower the temperature in the table without also moving the UVB source further or closer to the tortoise. But if you already have the combo light then you don't need another UVB source (just be sure you change the combo light every two years or so, as the UVB will diminish over time).
I think what Lin meant was to just add one of those low energy light bulbs that you would use in your house, to add some additional light, but not necessarily increase the temperature in the table. You can either have it on a cable and hang it at the other end of your table, or I have one of those bendy desk lamps, and I just hook that over one of the walls of my table and focus it down into the table and that does provide extra light when needed.

Nina

baz180
Posts: 5
Joined: 07 May 2022, 09:57

Re: New tortoise - first time owner

Post by baz180 » 31 Aug 2022, 23:28

Ah, yes, of course. That makes sense. I was wary of increasing the temperature too much so wanted to double-check. Thanks so much. I know you answer loads of these questions on the forum and I do read them so apologies for adding to them, but thanks again, it's really appreciated. Funnily enough, Turbo's been so lively the last couple of days. Hasn't stopped trying to break out of his outside enclosure, I love it!

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Nina
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Re: New tortoise - first time owner

Post by Nina » 01 Sep 2022, 08:16

Hi Barry,

Never apologies for asking us questions -- it's what we're here for, and anyway we enjoy hearing from you! I'm so glad that Turbo is full of energy. Mine have been great too (although when we had the super high temperatures they didn't like it at all and just wanted to hide away all day), and isn't it great when they are active and energetic?. Next week is supposed to bring rain and cooler temperatures, so I expect mine will pout a bit because they'll have to be indoors more.

Cheers,
Nina

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