Hibernation Dithering

[Carol Cilliers]

Hello.

Allegro, my horsfield, was winding down to hibernate. I'd given him ten days without food. He was slowing down and burying himself in the garden. I put him in his fridge on 5th but when I checked the temp it was 4-6 degrees and I brought him out because i thought 4 was too cold. I put him in again next day, at more like 8-10 and initially he burrowed into his compost but then next time I checked, he was trying to climb out. Thi shappened again so I brought him out and put him back outside.

In the garden he has a little house with windows in sunny side and roof, and a UV lamp. He also has access to a n outdoors area with sunshine and shade. The lamp was off but it's been warm so he perked up. I then gave him some lettuce and he ate it. So now, can I wind him down again to hibernate or does he need to stay awake all winter?

Also, he is very choosy about food. I have home-grown pansies, bell flower, dandelion and plantain but he remembers lettuce and won't eat the other things. Shall I leave him until he's hungry enough to stop being choosy?

Please advise. You helped save his life several years ago.

Carol

[Nina]

Hi Carol,

So sorry to hear that you've been having problems with hibernating Allegro. Ten days without food is a bit short if he is a very young tortoise (it should be between 2 - 4 weeks depending on size), but it was probably fine as he was slowing down and probably not eating much anyway. Although 5C is the ideal temperature for hibernation, tortoise are absolutely fine between about 2.5C or 3C and up to 9C. We only say 2.5C in case the thermometer is off a bit, as what you don't want is for it to get down to freezing or above about 10C. Also, tortoises -- especially Horsfields -- can take a long time to settle into hibernation and I have opened the fridge door after a week sometimes to see my tortoise staring up at me, wide awake. At 8C to 10C it was a little warm, but then opening the door does raise the temperature for a while, and he probably would have settled down eventually -- but I do understand why you were worried and took him out.

Regarding hibernating him now -- yes, I think you can, because he never properly got into a state of hibernation. Tortoises have something called glycogen, which is essentially their energy reserves that they live on whilst in hibernation). If they hibernate and then properly wake up they will have depleted these reserves and need to replenish them and so can't go back into hibernation. But your tortoise was never in hibernation so I think it is absolutely fine to start the process again. Lettuce is what we call a 'wet' food and goes through their digestive system more quickly than more fibrous foods, so I think that if you wind him down again (10 days should be sufficient if he only had a bit of lettuce, but make sure that for the first few days at least the temperature in his table under the lamp as at least 26C as that will enable his digestive system to work efficiently, Are you sure he didn't eat anything else whilst outside? Also, do make sure that you bathe him over the winding down period as you do want him to go into hibernation with a full bladder but an empty stomach.

Horsfields have a strong hibernation instinct and you might find it difficult to keep him awake all winter (although we do have advice for that if you decide not to hibernate him).

I hope this helps, and I do think he could still have a successful hibernation.

Best wishes,
Nina

[Carol Cilliers]

Thanks, Nina.
That's really helpful and reassuring.

Allegro is about 16 years old now, I think. He came to me (my son, really, but the's living in a flat and can't have him yet) 7 years ago from a rescue centre.

Not sure about eating outside but I think not, as the obvious things didn't seem to be nibbled. Should I keep him inside now even if he's sprightly? And starve him even if he's willing to eat?

Also, should his bating water be tepid as usual, even as he gets close to fridge time?

Thanks for your help.

Carol

[Nina]

Hi Carol,

I think if you want him to hibenate now then you probably should keep him inside (does he have heat and UVB inside?), because outdoors on a warm sunny day he might well have a nibble and it's really important that he doesn't go into hibernation with any food in his stomach (food in the gut is ok, and some tortoises even have a poo in hibernation, but food in the stomach can go off and produce toxic gas). So if you want to prepare him for hibernation now, then you must starve him, even if he is willing to eat. However, if it's warm and sunny outdoors and he is happy and eating, then you could wait until it's colder and less hospitable outdoors and wind him down later.

How long will you be hibernating him for? If he is happy and eating then the later he starts hibernating the later he will wake up -- and therefore the sooner he'll be able to go outdoors in the spring, as the weather gets better. I would aim for a hibernation of around 12 - 14 weeks, I think -- but how long does he usually hibernate?

Ahh, the bathing water. That's always a question I ask myself. I bathe them in nice warm water most of the time, but as the end of wind down comes, and the hours of light and heat are much diminished, I do make the water less warm -- but not cold -- so I guess sort of cool on the last day or two. that's not very helpful, is it?

Do let us know how you get on -- and good luck!

Nina

[Teddy28]

Just been reading these posts and lots of useful info thanks. Boris is also hiding away and sleeping most of the time too but still has a healthy appetite if I put the food (he's a sow thistle flower addict!) where his good eye can see it.
Still a worrying time though, being my first hibernation. I have his cooler set up and running and the temps in his box of substrate (probe buried) are currently measuring 6.5 ish; air temp in cooler underneath his box is 7.5 to 7.9 ish but to the rear of his box ,nearer the back of the cooler where the element is, it's reading between 3.9 and 5.9.
Do these temps sound reasonable Nina? I have the space underneath his box filled with small bottles of water.
I know it's daft but every time I open the cooler and feel the cold, I feel awful at the thought of putting him in there, especially as the substrate is a bit damp, should I try and dry it out do you think?

Apologies for interjecting and good luck with Allegro Carol

[Nina]

Yes, hibernation is a worrying time for all of us! If it's your first hibernation I would not do more than probably 10 - 12 weeks (am I right in thinking that Boris is about 4 now?), and I think that as long as Boris is still eating I would keep him awake a bit longer. If he goes into hibernation, say, November, that means he would wake up in February, but if he goes into hibernation in December then when he wakes up it will be a bit later and more weeds will be starting to grow outdoors. I agree that the best method is to let the tortoise dictate when he wants to hibernate, but sometimes a little human intervention doesn't hurt. My torts are also not waking up in the morning by themselves, but when they are warmed up they will still eat, so I'm not starting wind down yet. There are many people, however, who are contacting us now to say that their tortoises will not eat anything, no matter what they do, so they will have to start winding down.

Re your cooler. It sounds fine to me. I think I would have the probe in the air above the substrate (mine goes in through a small hole in the lid of the box and just hangs below the lid. My reasoning (and it could well be wrong), is that it is the air temperature you are looking for, and that is where the tortoise will be too. The temperatures you want should be between about 3C - 8 or 9C, so your range is OK, but obviously you want it to be around 5C as much as possible. The bottles of water will help to reduce big fluctuations of temperature in the short term (for example after you open the door).

I would definitely dry the substrate out, as tortoises don't do well with cold and damp, and it also means that it would be harder for you to know if he has had a wee or not (if he wees in hibernation then you must wake him up). If you can manage a small bowl of water somewhere in the cooler then that will provide enough humidity.

Do you have the guides for winding down and for fridge hibernation? In case you don't I've posted them here (adult tortoises of the smaller species, like Horsfields and Hermanns don't always need the full four-week wind down described in the guide and can use the a 3-week or 3.5 week wind down, depending on their weight, and young tortoises would only have about two weeks wind down. I would have thought that three weeks is fine for Teddy. Here is a link to the TPG page on hibernation and just scroll down to the links at the bottom to preparing for hibernation and fridge hibernation, etc. https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... ite/78.asp And do keep a record of the reducing hours of heat and light, as well as his weight during wind down and also his weight during hibernation.

Nina

[Teddy28]

Hi and thanks for all the info Nina, I 'll measure the air temps like you suggest and i think I'm going to take out about half the depth of substrate, dry it out and also give him some towels to hide in.
We actually spoke a few weeks ago by phone and discussed different hibernation mediums. Boris (40+ years) was previously hibernated in shredded newspaper before he came to me, but not in a cooler. Becuase he likes burying himself in his substrate I had decided to use substrate for hibernation but am changing my mind a bit now. He loves his towels and I still have time to experiment before putting him in.
You have already kindly shared a copy of Doris's wind down record with me and I've created a new one for Boris based on yours so i can record weight, reducing the light timings, poo and wee etc, it's really helpful and has given me a structure to follow
The more you learn, the more questions you have, or at least that's what I'm finding.
Thanks again for the advice, I'm sure there'll be many more questions before he hibernates!!