Hello All,
My 11 year old son recently became the very proud owner of a Russian Tortoise whom he has named Spud.
He wanted one last year but I wouldn't let him have one until it had sat and rested with him for quite sometime. I mean pets are a huge responsibility anyway never mind one that will probably out live me.
We bought Spud from a local exotic pet store and purchased their recommended set up. Now after reading on here I see how our closed lid enclosure isn't the preferred option. So apologies but that's what we was told to purchase. She seems very happy. We've had her since the end of July, she eats well, loves time outdoors on sunny days. I can't believe how quick she is. She isn't that shy and has walked onto my hand from the enclosure once.
She has put on 6grams in one month. Does this seem okay? Is it possible we can be feeding her too much?
Hibernation - do we do it? and how? why? The store said she was between 18 months to 2 years old when we got her. Does it matter if she hasn't hibernated before?
Also when she is outdoors and she is trotting everywhere I'm hoping she's happy and not scared? Her head is out, having a good look and a wonder, she loves to climb indoors and out.
We are so in love with her, we keep saying her because at the moment we think she is female!
Any help advice tips appreciated!
lots of love
Kelly
New Owner - Hibernation Q
Re: New Owner - Hibernation Q
I was going to post pictures but it won't let me attach and says the files are too large!Sorry
Re: New Owner - Hibernation Q
Hi Kelly, and welcome to The Tortoise Table (and many congratulations on getting Spud -- great name too!).
I can tell that you are all already in love with Spud and are doing your best to give him (or her) a good home.
Russian tortoises have -- as you have already discovered -- great personalities, but the one thing you do need to monitor is their food intake. In the wild they tend to live in areas with long, cold winters (and they hibernate for a long time) and with hot summers, when they aestivate (which is a bit like hibernation, but in the heat). It's been estimated that in their natural habitat they are only awake for about three months of the year, so they are sort of programmed to eat a lot in a short period of time. Of course in captivity, with us, they are presented with lovely meals every day and they tend to overeat and gain weight too quickly, and that results in deformed shells. For that reason you should keep a record of her weight gain and aim for an average gain of 1g - 3g per month (that is only an average and some months she will gain more and some less, and 6g isn't bad, so don't worry) Would your son like a complimentary copy of our Tortoise Observation Records booklet? It's a place to keep all your records (growth, change of equipment, vet details, etc. all in one place). Just send your name and address to me at nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk and I'll pop one in the post to you.
Enclosed glass and wood vivariums are really bad environments for tortoises and can cause long-term problems, so if it is possible for you to return that to the pet shop as not being fit for purpose that would be best, and we would be happy to provide you with documentation to show why they are bad for tortoises (good for snakes and lizards but not good at all for tortoises). Failing that, there are several ways in which you can convert a vivarium into a tortoise table. I've attached some photos at the end, and here is a link to an article that came in recently from soneone like yourself who bought a vivarium and, with the help of her kids, converted it into a really nice tortoise table (and it's quite humourous too, so I think you and your son might enjoy reading it): https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... 2NW4IvTW9s
In the meantime if you can take the glass doors off and put up a board or something, just high enough that she can't climb out, that will help with the air flow and allow a gradient of temperature. You need to aim for a temperature of 30C directly under the heat source, at the height of the tortoise's shell, and 20C at the cool end (and a thermometer mounted on a nearby wall will not give an accurate reading of the temperature directly below the lamp.
Regarding your photos, if you can't reduce them in size, then just send them to me at the email address I gave above and I'll reduce them and post them for you.
t's really great that you are getting her outdoors -- they love it outside, and the UVB from the sun is a much higher quality than anything we can provide indoors.
Regarding hibernation -- as you have only just acquired Spud it's best that you don't hibernate this year, as it's important that tortoises are in the best of health before hibernation, and we recommend waiting a year so that you get to know her little ways, and can spot if she is off colour in any way.
OK, I've rambled on far too long, but I wanted to answer you questions and give you some more information because from what I can see I think you and your family are going to excellent tortoise keepers and provide a really good home for Spud!
Finally here is a link to a good care sheet for Horsfield (Russian) tortoises. It was sort of written for keepers in the UK, but if you don't live in the UK it should still be relevant to you, and please don't hesitate to come back with more questions or if you have any problems. https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf
Warmest wishes,
Nina
[attachment=0]Viv Conversion.jpg[/attachment][attachment=1]Viv conversion.jpeg[/attachment]
I can tell that you are all already in love with Spud and are doing your best to give him (or her) a good home.
Russian tortoises have -- as you have already discovered -- great personalities, but the one thing you do need to monitor is their food intake. In the wild they tend to live in areas with long, cold winters (and they hibernate for a long time) and with hot summers, when they aestivate (which is a bit like hibernation, but in the heat). It's been estimated that in their natural habitat they are only awake for about three months of the year, so they are sort of programmed to eat a lot in a short period of time. Of course in captivity, with us, they are presented with lovely meals every day and they tend to overeat and gain weight too quickly, and that results in deformed shells. For that reason you should keep a record of her weight gain and aim for an average gain of 1g - 3g per month (that is only an average and some months she will gain more and some less, and 6g isn't bad, so don't worry) Would your son like a complimentary copy of our Tortoise Observation Records booklet? It's a place to keep all your records (growth, change of equipment, vet details, etc. all in one place). Just send your name and address to me at nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk and I'll pop one in the post to you.
Enclosed glass and wood vivariums are really bad environments for tortoises and can cause long-term problems, so if it is possible for you to return that to the pet shop as not being fit for purpose that would be best, and we would be happy to provide you with documentation to show why they are bad for tortoises (good for snakes and lizards but not good at all for tortoises). Failing that, there are several ways in which you can convert a vivarium into a tortoise table. I've attached some photos at the end, and here is a link to an article that came in recently from soneone like yourself who bought a vivarium and, with the help of her kids, converted it into a really nice tortoise table (and it's quite humourous too, so I think you and your son might enjoy reading it): https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... 2NW4IvTW9s
In the meantime if you can take the glass doors off and put up a board or something, just high enough that she can't climb out, that will help with the air flow and allow a gradient of temperature. You need to aim for a temperature of 30C directly under the heat source, at the height of the tortoise's shell, and 20C at the cool end (and a thermometer mounted on a nearby wall will not give an accurate reading of the temperature directly below the lamp.
Regarding your photos, if you can't reduce them in size, then just send them to me at the email address I gave above and I'll reduce them and post them for you.
t's really great that you are getting her outdoors -- they love it outside, and the UVB from the sun is a much higher quality than anything we can provide indoors.
Regarding hibernation -- as you have only just acquired Spud it's best that you don't hibernate this year, as it's important that tortoises are in the best of health before hibernation, and we recommend waiting a year so that you get to know her little ways, and can spot if she is off colour in any way.
OK, I've rambled on far too long, but I wanted to answer you questions and give you some more information because from what I can see I think you and your family are going to excellent tortoise keepers and provide a really good home for Spud!
Finally here is a link to a good care sheet for Horsfield (Russian) tortoises. It was sort of written for keepers in the UK, but if you don't live in the UK it should still be relevant to you, and please don't hesitate to come back with more questions or if you have any problems. https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf
Warmest wishes,
Nina
[attachment=0]Viv Conversion.jpg[/attachment][attachment=1]Viv conversion.jpeg[/attachment]
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Re: New Owner - Hibernation Q
Hello Nina,
Thankyou so so much for your extremely helpful reply!
Ahhh I'm so confused about the table/vivarium subject as so many other online articles recommend them too. Does it matter if mine has vents on there too? I would be interested in the links about this too as I'm sure my son will want facts and information presented to him if I was to say we need to change it. I appreciate you bringing this to my attention.
Regarding outdoors at what temp would you say don't take Spud out?
I will email you now he would LOVE that care sheet. We actually made our own with daily checks and a weight tracker but I'm sure he would love one more professionally done!
I'm feeling relieved about waiting for hibernation as it feels too much responsibily yet! I am going to read your links now!
Thankyou so much again!! My son is here reading this with me too!
Kelly
Thankyou so so much for your extremely helpful reply!
Ahhh I'm so confused about the table/vivarium subject as so many other online articles recommend them too. Does it matter if mine has vents on there too? I would be interested in the links about this too as I'm sure my son will want facts and information presented to him if I was to say we need to change it. I appreciate you bringing this to my attention.
Regarding outdoors at what temp would you say don't take Spud out?
I will email you now he would LOVE that care sheet. We actually made our own with daily checks and a weight tracker but I'm sure he would love one more professionally done!
I'm feeling relieved about waiting for hibernation as it feels too much responsibily yet! I am going to read your links now!
Thankyou so much again!! My son is here reading this with me too!
Kelly
Re: New Owner - Hibernation Q
Hi Kelly,
There is so much misinformation out there. Although the vents do help a bit, the main problem with vivariums arise because tortoises are ectothermic, which means they regulate their body temperature based on the temperature of the air around them, and they need to move from warm to cool areas to do this. Because of the enclosed nature of vivariums, you can't get a sufficient temperature gradation for them to do this. You are aiming for 30C at one end of the vivarium and 20C at the other.
Another reason is that vivariums are usually high sided but with not much floor space. This is fine for snakes and lizards that can climb, but not for tortoises who don't. Tortoises get bored and lethargic if they are in a small area without much interest for too long, and then they just want to sleep most of the time. So this is why even with very large tables we try to break up their sight lines so they can't see from one end of the table to the other without interruption (things they have to climb over/under/around. Here is an article by the Tortoise Trust on indoor housing -- scroll down to the heading 'Vivarium tanks': http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/vivarium.htm
Regarding taking Spud outdoors. They always say that if you can wear a short-sleeved t-shirt outdoors then your tortoise can go out. Small torts like Spud will lose their heat more quickly, so what I would do is warm him up well indoors, put him out, and when his shell starts to feel cooler then take him in and warm him up again and then he can go out some more.
You asked in another email about the red light that you were sold. Did the shop say why a red light would be good? Actually they are not good because tortoises associate red with edible things (flowers, etc.) and there have been cases of tortoises eating their substrate when it appeared red under the light. What you are aiming for is replicating the conditions of a bright summer's day, so you want a nice bright light. Your UVB strip is good for providing UVB, but the light it gives off isn't very bright and gives off almost no heat. So you can use an ordinary household spotlight to provide the extra light and heat that you want, and you should be able to raise and lower this bulb to raise and lower the temperature for Spud. The temperature in the room has a big effect on the temperature in a tortoise table (and even in a viv), so if the room is cold you need to lower the bulb and if it's hot you need to raise it (and in most vivs you can't do that). In a table you can have your bulb suspended above the table from a chain and that can be raised or lowered.
I've reduced your photos that you sent of the very handsome Spud and your your lovely son and have attached them at the end of this thread. To all who are reading this, Kelly and her family are going to build Spud a new tortoise table this weekend.
In the meantime here is an article on making indoor enclosures from our website -- what you need to consider and instructions for a small table for hatchlings (although if you are making your own table I would make as big a one as space would allow, and a ramp leading up to a second level will provide even more opportunity for exercise. Mine have always had a second level and the love running up and down the ramp to see if there are any treats for them upstairs, so I've also attached some photos of my table for Doris and Dolly.
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... 2R3_4vTW9s
and
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... 2R4IYvTW9s
Cheers,
Nina
[attachment=4]m_IMG_20200805_162954.jpg[/attachment][attachment=3]m_IMG_20200728_113521.jpg[/attachment][attachment=2]Spud.png[/attachment][attachment=1]IMG_9953 (Copy).JPG[/attachment][attachment=0]m_IMG_9496.jpg[/attachment]
There is so much misinformation out there. Although the vents do help a bit, the main problem with vivariums arise because tortoises are ectothermic, which means they regulate their body temperature based on the temperature of the air around them, and they need to move from warm to cool areas to do this. Because of the enclosed nature of vivariums, you can't get a sufficient temperature gradation for them to do this. You are aiming for 30C at one end of the vivarium and 20C at the other.
Another reason is that vivariums are usually high sided but with not much floor space. This is fine for snakes and lizards that can climb, but not for tortoises who don't. Tortoises get bored and lethargic if they are in a small area without much interest for too long, and then they just want to sleep most of the time. So this is why even with very large tables we try to break up their sight lines so they can't see from one end of the table to the other without interruption (things they have to climb over/under/around. Here is an article by the Tortoise Trust on indoor housing -- scroll down to the heading 'Vivarium tanks': http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/vivarium.htm
Regarding taking Spud outdoors. They always say that if you can wear a short-sleeved t-shirt outdoors then your tortoise can go out. Small torts like Spud will lose their heat more quickly, so what I would do is warm him up well indoors, put him out, and when his shell starts to feel cooler then take him in and warm him up again and then he can go out some more.
You asked in another email about the red light that you were sold. Did the shop say why a red light would be good? Actually they are not good because tortoises associate red with edible things (flowers, etc.) and there have been cases of tortoises eating their substrate when it appeared red under the light. What you are aiming for is replicating the conditions of a bright summer's day, so you want a nice bright light. Your UVB strip is good for providing UVB, but the light it gives off isn't very bright and gives off almost no heat. So you can use an ordinary household spotlight to provide the extra light and heat that you want, and you should be able to raise and lower this bulb to raise and lower the temperature for Spud. The temperature in the room has a big effect on the temperature in a tortoise table (and even in a viv), so if the room is cold you need to lower the bulb and if it's hot you need to raise it (and in most vivs you can't do that). In a table you can have your bulb suspended above the table from a chain and that can be raised or lowered.
I've reduced your photos that you sent of the very handsome Spud and your your lovely son and have attached them at the end of this thread. To all who are reading this, Kelly and her family are going to build Spud a new tortoise table this weekend.
In the meantime here is an article on making indoor enclosures from our website -- what you need to consider and instructions for a small table for hatchlings (although if you are making your own table I would make as big a one as space would allow, and a ramp leading up to a second level will provide even more opportunity for exercise. Mine have always had a second level and the love running up and down the ramp to see if there are any treats for them upstairs, so I've also attached some photos of my table for Doris and Dolly.
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... 2R3_4vTW9s
and
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... 2R4IYvTW9s
Cheers,
Nina
[attachment=4]m_IMG_20200805_162954.jpg[/attachment][attachment=3]m_IMG_20200728_113521.jpg[/attachment][attachment=2]Spud.png[/attachment][attachment=1]IMG_9953 (Copy).JPG[/attachment][attachment=0]m_IMG_9496.jpg[/attachment]
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