White circles on shell

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Thortoise
Posts: 8
Joined: 21 Mar 2017, 22:27

White circles on shell

Post by Thortoise » 25 Oct 2017, 20:12

Hi everyone,

You'll be please to know that after almost a year of treating Thor's face abscess, it's finally more or less healed (touch wood) AND he's finally begun to start putting on weight (hooray!). However, no sooner had I begun to breathe a sigh of relief, I spot a new thing to worry over!

He's got these tiny white circles all over his carapace, and I've literally just noticed them now. I'm pretty sure this is a new appearance and they seem to be just on the smooth parts of carapace, as opposed to the scutes or plastron. They're not raised, nor are they squishy.

He gets baths every day, but I usually don't wash the top of his shell (I have begun doing so, just in case it's a humidity thing).
For the last 9 months he's been on and off shredded paper as a substrate because of his open wound, but has been on a sandy soil substrate for the last two months (and since I got him pre-wound).

Humidity usually hovers around 70%, hot spot is 31 degrees and ambient temp is around 22 degrees. He's eating, behaving, and rampaging normally.

Does this look like a fungal infection needing treatment, something connected with calcium and humidity, or alien crop circles (as suggested on another forum!)?

Thanks!

Beth and Thor

p.s possibly related, possibly not, I think a small slither of his top beak has broken off as his left hand side mouth is looking a little gappy and lopsided. Will this grow back ok?
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Nina
Posts: 2003
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: White circles on shell

Post by Nina » 25 Oct 2017, 20:44

Hi Beth -- and it's great to hear that Thor's face abscesses are finally healed (and yes, touching wood is in order I guess)!

It was difficult for me to see the circles on your photos, but I think I have seen what you mean on the second photo. Are they always circles, or are they sometimes a bit like squiggly little lines, almost like little worm trails under the shell? I think what you are looking at are what are called keratin stress marks. These can appear during periods of rapid growth, but they are normal and actually nothing to worry about, and they are seen in tortoises in the wild as well. The word 'stress' in the term 'keratin stress marks' doesn't actually indicate that the tortoise or its shell is under any stress. So if this is what you are referring to then I think you can breathe easy. If you want to send in a close-up of some of the marks, just to double check, that would be great, but I do think i saw some keratin stress marks in one of the photos.

Cheers,
Nina

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lin
Posts: 1034
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:27

Re: White circles on shell

Post by lin » 25 Oct 2017, 20:59

I agree with Nina Beth. Keratin stress and nothing to worry about.
So pleased the abscesses have gone. Thor mist be feeling good now.

Lin

Thortoise
Posts: 8
Joined: 21 Mar 2017, 22:27

Re: White circles on shell

Post by Thortoise » 25 Oct 2017, 21:23

Hi Nina,

Thanks, this is reassuring. They are mostly small circles, but looking closer, a couple look elongated and seem to be merging with the tree-ring like growth that I'm used to seeing. The rapid growth would make sense, as he's been on double rations recently in an effort to get his weight up, as he put on virtually nothing this year because of his illness (He's been a steady 41g for almost a year and he's now recorded 46g (6cm long) this week and he's supposed to be 3 years old!).

He's had a very tough year with quite a stressful regime of long term antibiotics (with no discernible clinical benefit IMO). The vet is convinced he's got an underlying virus that fed into the problems with his face wound and may be responsible for his small size, but I've made the decision that I don't want to investigate that possibility as it will involve a lot of stressful interventions and and some unpleasant treatments for something that's essentially incurable. The approach I'm taking is that as long as he's behaving as he should and has a good quality of life, that's all I can ask of him (in the context of these health issues, if something new cropped up obviously I'd look to treat!).

With all that background, would you say I should still be aiming for the 1-3g a month slow growth, given he's such a tiny tort, or should I continue with the double rations in an effort to get him to a weight nearer to where he should be for his age (unsure what that should be actually)? Obviously he wont be hibernating this year.

Thanks,
Beth

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Nina
Posts: 2003
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: White circles on shell

Post by Nina » 25 Oct 2017, 22:16

Hi Beth,

My goodness, at 46g he is very small for three years of age -- but the hard times are behind him now and, as you say, it's the future you need to concentrate on. I do agree with you that new investigations as to whether there is an underlying virus are probably not warranted now, and you don't want to put him in another stressful situation just when he is finally coming out of previous ones. So as long as he seems healthy and is behaving as you would expect a tortoise to behave, I think you're right to look to the future.

The question of how fast he should now grow is a bit complicated. He is obviously very small for his age. My tortoise Doris has always been small for her age, and a vet explained to me that some tortoises are naturally just smaller -- like some people are smaller -- so I don't think there is a perfect weight for a particular age. However the reason for Thor being small is different, because he has been so ill. The problem lies in whether to try to grow him fast.

To be honest, I think personally that the dangers of growing a tortoise too fast outweigh any benefits. If you think about it, 3g aboumonth is quite a percentage for a tortoise that only weighs 46g to put on -- about 7% -- and I wouldn't aim for any more than that. The reason is that it doesn't actually matter what weight he starts at -- if he grows quickly then the possibility of problems with shell growth (pyramiding and even potentially metabolic bone disease) become greater. You could feed him up super well and he could gain a lot quickly, but I think there could well be problems with the structure of his growing shell because fast growth is fast growth, no matter where you start from. He needs to grow slowly and get good exercise so that he builds up muscle and bone evenly, and I would still aim for the 1g - 3g a month, but also keep him well hydrated. It's just my personal view, and I'd be interested to see if others feel differently.

You've done a brilliant job with him, Beth, and he is very lucky to have found you!

Nina

Thortoise
Posts: 8
Joined: 21 Mar 2017, 22:27

Re: White circles on shell

Post by Thortoise » 25 Oct 2017, 22:25

Hi Nina,

Thanks for your kind words of encouragement! Your suggestions make sense - slow and steady (growth) wins the race after all!

Thanks again Nina and Lin for the advice and reassurance :D

Beth

Gring1981
Posts: 1
Joined: 19 Mar 2018, 18:03

Re: White circles on shell

Post by Gring1981 » 19 Mar 2018, 18:15

hey there Thortoise! wanted to ask if you have some updates? would really appreciate anything as i noticed same white circles on shell either and got worried. thanks!

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lin
Posts: 1034
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:27

Re: White circles on shell

Post by lin » 19 Mar 2018, 19:25

Hiya and welcome.

The white squiggles/circles you can see are quite normal and it can be seen it many tortoises so no need to panic.

Lin

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Nina
Posts: 2003
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: White circles on shell

Post by Nina » 19 Mar 2018, 21:04

Lin is right, and if you read the second post in this thread, you can see that the marks on Thortoise's tortoises are called keratin stress marks. However, just to be sure, it's always good to send in a photo of what you are seeing on your tortoise.

Nina

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