5 year old Herman pyramiding concerns

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Fiona44
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Joined: 08 Apr 2020, 18:54

5 year old Herman pyramiding concerns

Post by Fiona44 » 08 Apr 2020, 19:07

Hi all,
New here so hope this is the right way to access support. I got my Herman tortoise for a year and a half and he came to me with what I think may be pyramiding. In the time I’ve had him he has continued to grow healthily but I cannot see any change in his shell.
To give some background, he has a table which is filled with coco fibre from pets at home with a 100w solar basking spotlight. He usually eats lettuce and salad leaves in the winter months and weeds from dandelions when they are about in the garden. I also feed him flox leaves on occasion. He also has pepper/ grape/ strawberry once or twice a week so he doesn’t get too much sugar and all of his food is sprinkled with calcium supplement. After looking at some of the forums on here, I have just ordered some Nutrobal and cuttlefish fish for his table as a source of protein.
I try to bath him daily for 20 minutes or so and when the weather is nice he spends the day outside. He is a very active tort with a cheeky personality and lots of energy! But I just wondered if there was anything I could do do help his shell - whether it is reversible or something that he can grow out of.
I have attached pictures, the one of him outside is when I first got him and one in his table is him now :) Thanks in advance!
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Nina
Posts: 2020
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: 5 year old Herman pyramiding concerns

Post by Nina » 08 Apr 2020, 22:38

Hi Fiona and welcome to The Tortoise Table. He's a lovely little Hermann's tortoise (what is his name?). Yes, it does look like he is developing some pyramiding. There are several causes of this, for example eating the wrong kinds of food (particularly food that is high in protein), eating too much of the right kind of food (tortoises come from areas where food is often scarce so in the wild they eat far less than we offer them in captivity), and sometimes humidity issues (too dry and environment can sometimes contribute).

The main cause is usually eating too much, so for that reason we monitor their weight and restrict or enhance the diet accordingly. What you want to aim for is a weight gain on average of between 1g - 3g per month. This is just an average and some months he will gain more and some less, but it's a guideline.

The diet you are giving him is OK, but not ideal, to be honest. I would cut out the fruit altogether. The digestive system of tortoises doesn't cope well with the natural sugars in fruit, and although it won't kill him, it can upset his digestive system and really isn't necessary (that won't have contributed to pyramiding though). Also, lettuce is OK for hydration as it has a lot of water in it, but is not very nutritious, and is what we call a 'wet food', which means that it goes through their digestive system very quickly and they don't absorb many nutrients. If you have a look at the database on our website you can find lots of good plants that grow in your garden, in the wild and in your house to feed him. We have a traffic light system for feeding (green, amber-green, amber-red and red) and that is all explained in the How to Use section of the website. You can look up any plant and see if it is good for him, and you can also filter the whole database to show only good plants to feed.
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/ If you want guidance on how to do this just let me know.

If you carefully monitor his weight gain and feed a good diet his current pyramiding won't disappear but this future growth will be smooth and in a few years time the little pyramid bumps won't be noticeable at all. You probably already have one, but in case you don't, here is a link to a care sheet for Hermanns: https://www.tortoise-protection-group.o ... 014New.pdf

Just one other question. You mention the 100W solar basking spotlight. Is this a light that provides UVB as well as light and heat? UVB is really important in the development of shell and bone and the lights need changing every year or two, so if his UVB is inadequate that could be causing shell problems too.

It is great that you are bathing him often, as that is very important too. Is he in a tortoise table or a vivarium (if you could post a picture of his set-up that would be great).

I think you are providing him with a good home, and it is great that he has access to the outside when the weather is good (the sun is the best provider of UVB light), so I think your care just needs a few tiny tweaks and it will be perfect!

Nina

Fiona44
Posts: 7
Joined: 08 Apr 2020, 18:54

Re: 5 year old Herman pyramiding concerns

Post by Fiona44 » 09 Apr 2020, 11:41

That is all very helpful, thank you!

His name is Roger 😁

I have just printed off both guides you suggested and am going on a hunt round the garden to see what plants I can feed him. I have ordered some scales to weigh him as well as the Nutrobal and cuttlefish.

I have noticed that the lamp I am using is not uvb (pic attached) he was given to me with that bulb and I just rebought the same bulb when it blew and have been doing so since. Makes me think the previous owner was not a great source of info for tortoise care - glad I checked here! Do you have any suggestions for lamps which provide uvb? The one I have is just from pets at home.

He’s in a table - picture attached. Looking at moving house this year and am excited to make an outside area for him in the new garden!

Thank you so much for your quick reply 😁
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Nina
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Re: 5 year old Herman pyramiding concerns

Post by Nina » 09 Apr 2020, 15:30

Roger is a super name and he has a very nice table, so well done! I'm so glad that we picked up on the fact that he doesn't have a source of UVB, as that is absolutely crucial to their development. He would have got some UVB when he was out in the garden (from the sun), but they need a lot. What UVB does is to react with the skin on a tortoise and that causes Vitamin D3 to be made. Vitamin D3 enables the tortoise to utilise the calcium in his diet to produce healthy shell and bone (and if you think about it they are mainly shell and bone!), so it's very important, because if they don't have it then any calcium you give him is wasted. The Nutrobal will have vitamin D3 it, so that is great. Some tortoises don't like the taste, so if Roger doesn't let me know and I'll give you some ways to trick him into eating it.

There are two ways you can provide UVB -- either a combined heat,light and UVB mercury vapour bulb, or a fluorescent UVB tube with a separate bulb for heat and light (the tube doesn't give out much light or heat). Have a read of this section of our website, which contains an explanation of the different types of bulbs and then get back to us and we'll see what would be best for you. https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... o8wY5l7m9s

If you choose to have a fluorescent tube you can still use your current bulb for heat and light, but then you have two sources on your table, so you might want the all in one. Pets at home seem to be out of stock of good UVB bulbs, but you can get them at loads of places on the internet so there won't be a problem.

Nina

Fiona44
Posts: 7
Joined: 08 Apr 2020, 18:54

Re: 5 year old Herman pyramiding concerns

Post by Fiona44 » 12 Apr 2020, 14:30

Thank you! I have had him outside in the nice weather this last week so that’s his uvb source whilst I source a bulb!

I have found this one online - just checking it’s the right one before ordering! NEOREP Reptile Mercury Vapour 100 Watt Lamp UV UVA UVB Heat Bulb Lamp ES27 Screw Thread/Tortoise D3 Combined Heat and Light https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B076VDPCDS/ ... KEbA94T6S7

Thanks again x

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Nina
Posts: 2020
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: 5 year old Herman pyramiding concerns

Post by Nina » 12 Apr 2020, 16:14

Hi Fiona,

That is certainly the right type of bulb, but I don't actually know the brand so not sure how reliable it is. I couldn't remember the best brand when I wrote the previous post, but I've since remembered that Megaray is generally considered to be one of the best, and it also offers a six-month warranty, which means that if the bulb blows in the first six months they will replace it free of charge. These bulbs do sometimes blow (not often but it can happen). And with all mercury vapour bulbs you need to hang them straight down, not at an angle, and remember you can't use a thermostat with them. So the NeoRep one you saw is the right type of bulb, and it's cheaper than the Megaray, but here is a link to the Megaray if you want to have a look:
http://www.megaray.co.uk/mega-ray-100w- ... p-145.html

Cheers and Happy Easter!

Nina

Fiona44
Posts: 7
Joined: 08 Apr 2020, 18:54

Re: 5 year old Herman pyramiding concerns

Post by Fiona44 » 13 Apr 2020, 13:07

Perfect - thanks so much for your help with all of this! Have started feeding him bits from around the garden - no lettuce or fruit! Ordered the bulb, cuttlefish, Nutrobal and scales to weigh him.
Waiting for all to arrive in these strange times...!
Many thanks again :D

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Nina
Posts: 2020
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: 5 year old Herman pyramiding concerns

Post by Nina » 13 Apr 2020, 14:47

Wow, Roger is going to be super happy and healthy! I hope you didn't order really expensive scales (all you need is a decent digital kitchen scale -- they work pretty well).

Actually, sending you the link to that Megaray reminded me that I really need a new bulb and I think I'm going to order one of those myself. I've always used an ordiinary or reptile bulb for heat and light and then the fluorescent tube for UVB, but my tube is coming to the end of its life and I think I'm going to try the mercury vapour ones for a while.

Cheers, and happy Bank Holiday to you and Roger.

Nina

Fiona44
Posts: 7
Joined: 08 Apr 2020, 18:54

Re: 5 year old Herman pyramiding concerns

Post by Fiona44 » 13 Apr 2020, 16:41

£15 scales from Amazon - got simple kitchen ones that measure in grams!
Have a lovely bank holiday!

Fiona44
Posts: 7
Joined: 08 Apr 2020, 18:54

Re: 5 year old Herman pyramiding concerns

Post by Fiona44 » 16 Apr 2020, 17:17

Roger’s stuff all arrived today! I weighed him against the Jackson ratio (hope this is what I should have done) and he is at 0.23 which is possibly overweight.

I shall continue to weigh him each month and see if he is gaining weight and also see how his shell is doing now he has his fancy new light!

He is very active and normally doesn’t eat a huge amount but will limit what I am giving him further to see if his weight ratio improves.

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Nina
Posts: 2020
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: 5 year old Herman pyramiding concerns

Post by Nina » 16 Apr 2020, 17:55

Hi Fiona,

I don't think i would use the Jackson ratio as a guide in this situation. That scale is traditionally used determine if a tortoise if fit to hibernate, and as helpful in ordinary times, as it was based on statistics gathered from tortoises in the wild and we are dealing with tortoises in captivity. It's a good general guide for a few species, like Hermanns, at hibernation time, but I don't think it has great value as a day-to-day measurement tool. I would just start keeping records and aim for an average weight increase of between 1g - 3g per month, as mentiioned in my earlier post.

Also, if you are using the Jackson ratio it's really important that you are measuring Roger in the correct way (especially the length), so here is a link to our instructions on how to do that: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tor ... piNapl7m9s

Actually, I can't remember now if I've asked you already, but would you like one of our Observation Records booklets? It enables you to keep all your records in one place and people find it really useful. Just send me an email with your address in it and I'll pop one in the post -- nina@thetortoisetable.org.uk

Nina

Fiona44
Posts: 7
Joined: 08 Apr 2020, 18:54

Re: 5 year old Herman pyramiding concerns

Post by Fiona44 » 18 Apr 2020, 19:55

Okay no problem - I’ll just track his weight gain each month from now on:)

I would love one - I’ll email you!
Thanks x

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