Substrate

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Natalieb
Posts: 15
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 20:26

Substrate

Post by Natalieb » 23 Apr 2017, 14:15

Hello,

When we bought Morel last year I did a lot of research online regarding his habitat and care. Since we have had him, he has been on a soil/sand substrate (more soil than sand). Earlier today I posted a photo of him on a tortoise related Facebook page and I have had lots of negative comments about the use of sand....how it can scratch their eyes and cause them to go blind and how over years it can be ingested and cause gut problems...should I switch to a purely topsoil substrate??

So much conflicting info out there!
Last edited by Natalieb on 23 Apr 2017, 14:54, edited 1 time in total.

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lin
Posts: 1034
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:27

Re: Substrate

Post by lin » 23 Apr 2017, 14:33

Hi Natalie.
To be honest it does seem to be very conflicting. However that decision is entirely up to you. I and I know others use soil and sand substrate. In the wild many tortoises so live in soil and sand areas and there is a split between forums.
IMO if your tortoise has been happy in the substrate you have him on, there is no health issues and you are happy then why fix something that isnt broke.

Others will add their thoughts I am sure.

Lin
Oh, I couldnt hardly see your message because of the size of your :( - lol

Natalieb
Posts: 15
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 20:26

Re: Substrate

Post by Natalieb » 23 Apr 2017, 14:58

Thanks Lin! I have deleted the offending emoji from my message....I also deleted the pic from the fb page as I couldn't be doing with all the judgemental negativity! I have attached it here though....Morel after waking this morning having completely buried himself overnight!
Attachments
2017-04-23 14.56.17.jpg

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Nina
Posts: 2003
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: Substrate

Post by Nina » 23 Apr 2017, 16:53

Well, I think that looks like one happy and healthy tortoise! I know there is a bit of a debate going on now about sand, and it is true that sand (especially the commercially available stuff called Calci Sand, which tends to clump together) has been known to cause impactions. However, if you've ever seen photos of, for example, Hermanns in the wild in Spain, the soil is so sandy that it looks like pure sand. I think the problem can be that in the wild the plants are growing out of the sand and the leaves, etc. aren't covered in it. In captivity if the leaves/flowers are fed wet and on top of the substrate then lots of substrate can stick to them and the tortoise eats it. Most of that will just go through the tortoise, but too much could cause impaction.

I suppose one thing you can do to avoid this is feed him in a dish that is surrounded by flat stones or something so less soil/sand gets on his food (although he will probably pull the food off onto the substrate anyway). I tend to do most of my feeding on the upper level of the table where there isn't any substrate, but I do feed some on the ground level and there has never been a problem.

Here is a link to an article by The Tortoise Trust on substrates. https://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/substrates.html

Nina

Natalieb
Posts: 15
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 20:26

Re: Substrate

Post by Natalieb » 23 Apr 2017, 17:33

Thanks Nina! I think he is a happy and healthy tortoise :D I always feed him on a slate slab so his food isn't covered in substrate....just calcium powder ;) I always try to do the best by him....his table is lovely (even if I do say so myself!), he feeds on a 100% freshly picked weed diet at the moment, he enjoys regular baths and is gaining weight at an acceptable rate....and soon we'll be building him an outdoor enclosure! I was just very shocked at the way I was 'attacked' on facebook :? I did quote the information from the tortoise trust, etc, but was shot down in flames! X

Bigjoe
Posts: 40
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 20:23

Re: Substrate

Post by Bigjoe » 23 Apr 2017, 18:11

I often wonder where people get their knowledge from regarding this sand topic.. :?: ..make it up or just pulled from somebody's opinion.. :?: .what about Gopherus polyphemus ( Gopher Tortoise) native to the southeastern United States..worth reading up on this Tortoise's habitat..Testudo Graeca Graeca another species again habitat worth reading up on or even better go and have a look and see first hand ,Spains not that far away..look see and take in the natural habitat and you will be surprised..
Nina I'll shoot you over some pictures of natural habitat from Spain where Testudo Graeca Graeca live,I'm sure I sent you pictures a few years back..if you could resize and add to this post I would be grateful.
Natalieb sorry to read you where attached on fb..not nice ..intesting to hear what experience the people/persons have who shot down in flames the information from TT actually have..field research trips to back up their comments,studying Tortoise habitat..of course Tortoises never come into contact with sand in the wild..or dust or grit or thorns or sharp stones ect ect

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Nina
Posts: 2003
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: Substrate

Post by Nina » 23 Apr 2017, 18:15

Thanks, Joe! When I said that about Hermanns tortoises in Spain I was actually thinking of some of the photos you sent me. Including one of a handful of the substrate that these tortoises lived on and it looked like almost pure sand. I don't still have those photos, but if you send them to me I'll post them.

Cheers,
Nina

Bigjoe
Posts: 40
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 20:23

Re: Substrate

Post by Bigjoe » 23 Apr 2017, 18:18

Found and resized them..
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IMG_4571.JPG
IMG_4568.JPG
IMG_4220.JPG

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Nina
Posts: 2003
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: Substrate

Post by Nina » 23 Apr 2017, 18:20

Perfect, Joe! And that is the tortoise's natural environment, so you can't argue with that. Thanks so much for posting those!

Nina

Bigjoe
Posts: 40
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 20:23

Re: Substrate

Post by Bigjoe » 23 Apr 2017, 18:22

Lots more if needed...

Natalieb
Posts: 15
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 20:26

Re: Substrate

Post by Natalieb » 23 Apr 2017, 18:44

Thank you so much for the pics! I feel much better now :)

I'm sure all substrates could potentially be hazardous...at the end of the day, we're all just trying to do our best and so far, Morel seems like a perfectly happy tortoise :lol:

Thank you again x

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Nina
Posts: 2003
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: Substrate

Post by Nina » 23 Apr 2017, 18:46

That's great - and a photo is definitely worth 1,000 words! And here are some more photos of tortoises in the wild (the copyright for them is on the photo).
[attachment=5]m_Tortoises in their natural habitats.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=4]m_Tortoises in natural habitat.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=3]m_Torts in natural habitat.jpg[/attachment]


and here are a few more of Joe's photos too, showing the terrain they live on.

[attachment=1]m_Tortoises in Spain 4219.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=0]m_Tortoises in spain 4567.jpg[/attachment]
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m_Tortoises in spain 4567.jpg
m_Tortoises in Spain 4219.jpg
m_Torts in their natural habitat.jpg
m_Torts in natural habitat.jpg
m_Tortoises in natural habitat.jpg
m_Tortoises in their natural habitats.jpg
m_Tortoises in natural habitat.jpg

Natalieb
Posts: 15
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 20:26

Re: Substrate

Post by Natalieb » 23 Apr 2017, 18:50

And here he is eating his sand free weeds from his slate ;)

The lovely people on the Facebook page went to the trouble of sending me pics of tortoises that were blind as a result of scratches on their eyes from sand (apparently) and x rays of tortoises with sand blockages :cry:
Attachments
2017-04-23 18.47.46.jpg

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Nina
Posts: 2003
Joined: 16 Mar 2017, 11:22

Re: Substrate

Post by Nina » 23 Apr 2017, 18:58

Aww, great photo! It is true that there have been cases of impaction by sand in tortoises, but it is not common and there are thousands and thousands of people who raise their tortoises on a sand and topsoil substrate, which most closely approximates their natural environment and they have had no problems at all. So just keep on as you have been -- you have a very happy little tortoise there.

Nina

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